1 1 BEFORE THE 2 TEXAS RACING COMMISSION 3 AUSTIN, TEXAS 4 5 6 7 COMMISSION MEETING 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 BE IT REMEMBERED that the above entitled 15 matter came on for hearing on the 3rd day of December, 2001, 16 beginning at 10:07 A.M. at Building E, 6100 Guadalupe, 17 Austin, Travis County, Texas, and the following proceedings 18 were reported by SHERRI SANTMAN FISHER, Certified Shorthand 19 Reporter for the State of Texas. 20 21 22 23 24 25 FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 Commissioners: TERRI LACY 4 DAVID C. GARZA 5 MIKE RUTHERFORD 6 JIM SCHULZE 7 TREVA BOYD 8 R. DYKE ROGERS 9 COLLEEN McHUGH 10 JIMMY ARCHER 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 3 1 CHAIRPERSON LACY: The meeting is called to 2 order. 3 Ms. Giberson, would you call the roll, 4 please? 5 MS. GIBERSON: Treva Boyd? 6 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Here. 7 MS. GIBERSON: David Garza? 8 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Here. 9 MS. GIBERSON: Colleen McHugh? 10 MS. McHUGH: Here. 11 MS. GIBERSON: Dyke Rogers? 12 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Here. 13 MS. GIBERSON: Mike Rutherford? 14 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Here. 15 MS. GIBERSON: Jimmy Archer? 16 MR. ARCHER: Here. 17 MS. GIBERSON: Jim Schulze? 18 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Here. 19 MS. GIBERSON: Terri Lacy? 20 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Here. 21 A quorum being present, we'll proceed with the 22 meeting. 23 We'll go first to proceedings on rulemaking, 24 which is at Tab 1. 25 Ms. Kennison, I'll recognize you for an FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 4 1 explanation. 2 MS. KENNISON: Commissioners, the amendments 3 for adoption were published in the October 26, 2001 issue of 4 the Texas Register with the exception of Sections 323.202, 5 323.203. Sections 323.202 and 323.203 should have been 6 included as part of the rule review of Chapter 323. 7 However, due to my error, these rules were omitted from the 8 Texas Register. These two amendments were published on 9 November 16th. However, because it is insufficient time for 10 comment, these amendments cannot be adopted at this 11 meeting. To date, no comments have been received regarding 12 any of these adoptions. 13 Section 303.102, this amendment serves 14 multiple purposes. It states the eligibility and filing 15 requirements for registering a greyhound as an accredited 16 Texas-bred. It states the procedures for calculating and 17 distributing owners' awards for accredited Texas-bred 18 greyhounds. It states how much breakage must be allocated 19 to Texas-bred stakes races. And it requires TGA to prepare 20 a proposed allocation, considering certain factors, and 21 present the allocation to the Commission for approval. 22 309.10, this amendment was previously in 23 Chapter 307. It was simply moved to the more appropriate 24 Chapter 309. 25 311.8, this amendment was created in response FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 5 1 to new legislation under the Texas Government Code which 2 requires agencies to notify persons that provide information 3 to the Commission that they have the right to have incorrect 4 information changed at no cost. 5 311.103, this amendment clarifies the intent 6 of the rule by prohibiting ownerships of multiple kennels by 7 persons who are residentially domiciled together. 8 313.112, 315.109, these amendments relate to 9 entry procedures. They were created to move these 10 procedures from Chapter 307 to the more appropriate chapters 11 which will make the procedures more accessible to trainers 12 and those who use these rules most often. 13 321.311 and 321.315, these amendments clarify 14 that exchange tickets are to be used when there are no 15 tickets selecting the correct three finishers in the first 16 leg of either pool and define that only in situations where 17 exchange tickets were issued from the first half selecting 18 the correct three in exact order is eligible for the capped 19 carryover pool in the second half. 20 Chapter 307 and Chapter 323, rule reviews, 21 rule reviews are mandated by the sunset review legislation 22 of 1997. Staff determined that it was appropriate to repeal 23 and replace Chapter 307. Suggestions for changes were 24 incorporated into the new Chapter 307. 25 There is an omission in the Register of a FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 6 1 clause "if known" in Section 323.2 -- that's listed in your 2 notebook as 1-42 -- so that it will be adopted with 3 changes. Significant changes in Chapter 323 are a time 4 limit on when an alleged violator may respond to a 5 complaint. All complaints provisions were moved into one 6 section. Duplicative language found in Section 15.03 of the 7 act has been deleted. And Commission employees have been 8 added to those persons required to report an arrest, except 9 for traffic, and report any criminal activity related to 10 racing or pari-mutuel wagering. 11 Staff recommends these proposals be adopted. 12 The motion would be to adopt the proposals with the 13 exceptions of 323.202 and 323.203. 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: And, Ms. Kennison, I notice 15 that we have some replacement -- 16 MS. KENNISON: That's correct. 17 CHAIRPERSON LACY: -- pages. Could you please 18 explain those to us? 19 MS. KENNISON: Most of those changes were 20 inserted because of style requirements of the Register. If 21 you had any specific questions on any one, I'd be glad to 22 answer it. 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Ms. Kennison, you might go 24 over these for us. I think it will make the meeting go more 25 quickly. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 7 1 MS. KENNISON: Starting with replacement 2 1-21? 3 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I'm actually looking at 4 replacement 1-17. It's Chapter 321. 5 MS. KENNISON: Okay. When you go down to the 6 added language, you'll notice that it says "paragraph (1)". 7 Well, the Texas Register prefers that as opposed to a 8 "(t)(1) above". That's how we had it previously, but they 9 prefer that it be written as Chapter 1 of this subsection. 10 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. Great. 11 MS. KENNISON: On Chapter 18, starting in (A) 12 paragraph, again, they like that language of "paragraph 13 (1)(A) of this subsection" as opposed to "section 14 (t)(1)(A)". 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. 16 MS. KENNISON: Going further in (B), it was 17 added "50 percent of the" on the first end of that changed 18 language instead of on the back end. The "of the" goes 19 before the correction. That's the change there. 20 In (i) paragraph, it should be "interests," 21 plural, instead of "interest". That was the change there. 22 Going with 1-21 -- 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Uh-huh. 24 MS. KENNISON: -- again, that "paragraph (1) 25 of this subsection" was added instead of "(t)(1) above" as FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 8 1 we had previously had it. 2 Again, on page 1-22, the language of 3 "paragraph (1)(A) of this subsection" was added instead of 4 "section (t)(1)(A)". 5 Again, in (B), "50 percent of the" is added 6 there instead of on the backside where we had it before. 7 It's their style preferences. 8 Again, "interests" is plural. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Where is "interests" 10 plural? 11 MS. KENNISON: (B). 12 CHAIRPERSON LACY: (B)? 13 MS. KENNISON: (B)(i). 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. I'm showing a -- 15 "the first four betting interests"? 16 MS. KENNISON: Right. 17 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Should it be plural? 18 MS. KENNISON: Yes. 19 CHAIRPERSON LACY: So we need to make that 20 change, correct? 21 MS. KENNISON: That's right. 22 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. 23 MS. KENNISON: And then in that same clause, 24 "but if there are no such, then" is added after trifecta 25 pool. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 9 1 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. 2 MS. KENNISON: And if you'll go to I-33 -- 3 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. 4 MS. KENNISON: -- there's a period missing. 5 CHAIRPERSON LACY: And where is that? 6 MS. KENNISON: I'm sorry. It's I-34 -- 1-34. 7 No. (3), it should have a period. It didn't last time. 8 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. 9 MS. KENNISON: 1-43, on line seven it should 10 have "e-mail address, facsimile" right after "mailing 11 address". 12 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. 13 MS. KENNISON: And line 12 should have a 14 plural, "signs". 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: So we need to substitute 16 these pages in what we're making a motion on. 17 MS. KENNISON: That's right. 18 CHAIRPERSON LACY: So the motion would 19 actually be to adopt the proposals with the revisions 20 provided today and with the exception of Sections 323.202 21 and 323.203. 22 MS. KENNISON: That's correct. 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioners, any 24 questions? 25 Anyone wishing to testify? FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 10 1 I'd entertain a motion to adopt these 2 proposals with the changes provided to us today and with the 3 exception of Sections 323.202 and 323.203. 4 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: So move. 5 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rogers has so 6 moved. 7 Do I hear a second? 8 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Second. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Garza has 10 seconded. 11 Any discussion? 12 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 13 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any opposed? 15 The motion passes unanimously. 16 Okay. We'll move to proposals at Tab 2. 17 And, Ms. Kennison, I'll call on you again for 18 an explanation. 19 MS. KENNISON: Commissioners, Section 303.9, 20 this amendment is a housekeeping matter. It deletes an 21 incorrect cross-reference and inserts the correct section. 22 309.361, this amendment would hold purses in 23 greyhound stakes races until all drug testing had been 24 completed and cleared in the qualifying races and finals 25 before the distribution of the purse money to the affected FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 11 1 persons. In effect, this amendment provides an exception to 2 the 10-day payout rule requirement in greyhound purses. 3 Section 311.101 and 315.250, the purpose of 4 the new 315.250 is to provide standards for greyhound 5 breeding farms as required by Section 10.04(b) of the Racing 6 Act. Section 311.101 was amended to add an enforcement 7 mechanism by requiring kennel owners to provide 8 documentations that the greyhounds participating in Texas 9 pari-mutuel racing are, in fact, whelped from inspected 10 farms. 11 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Ms. Kennison, let me 12 interrupt you for just a second. I'm sorry. But is that 13 311.101 or 311.103? 14 MS. KENNISON: 103. Sorry. 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. Thank you. 16 MS. KENNISON: Section 319.338 and Section 17 319.363, 319.338 was formerly 319.363. The rule was simply 18 moved so that the same procedure for storage of splits would 19 apply both to greyhounds and horses. 20 319.362, 319.391, the amendment at Section 21 319.391 provides a procedure to request a split, determine 22 when a split is to be performed, and maintain the split for 23 greyhounds. Section 319.362 was amended to reflect the 24 current practice of handling split samples. 25 Staff recommends these proposals be published FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 12 1 in the Texas Register. 2 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioners, any 3 questions? 4 Is anyone wishing to testify? 5 I'd entertain a motion that we publish the 6 proposals for 303.99, 309.361, 311.103, 315.250, 319.338, 7 319.362, 319.363, and 319.391 in the Texas Register. 8 Do I hear such a motion? 9 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Second. 10 COMMISSIONER BOYD: I so move. 11 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Boyd has so 12 moved. 13 Do I hear a second? 14 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Second. 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rutherford has 16 seconded. 17 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 18 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 19 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any opposed? 20 The motion passes unanimously. 21 We'll move now to proceedings on occupational 22 licensees, consideration of and action on the following 23 matter: Proposal for decision in SOAH No. 476-01-2753. 24 Ms. Kennison, I'll recognize you again. 25 MS. KENNISON: Commissioners, on August 27, FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 13 1 2001, a hearing was conducted before an administrative law 2 judge or ALJ. The deadline for filing exceptions to the 3 proposal for decision before you was September 27, 2001. 4 Neither party elected to file any such exceptions. 5 To summarize this case, the ALJ found the 6 racing judges' ruling was proper. Most of the facts in this 7 case were stipulated at the hearing, including the post-race 8 medication positives. The only disputed issue was whether 9 the judges had the authority to redistribute the purse money 10 where the positive finding was in an earlier qualifying 11 race. 12 Given these facts, the ALJ found that the 13 racing judges acted within their authority when they 14 suspended the trainer for five days and a 200-dollar fine. 15 In addition, the ALJ found that the racing judges had the 16 authority to disqualify the greyhounds from the trial race 17 where they tested positive as well as the subsequent rounds 18 of finals. 19 Finally, the ALJ found that the redistribution 20 of the purse was reasonable and within the authority of the 21 racing judges. The ALJ's rationale for this finding is 22 clearly set forth at Tab 3, page eight, where she states, 23 "The Commission's interpretation of its own rules is 24 entitled to substantial deference as long as the 25 interpretation is neither plainly erroneous nor inconsistent FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 14 1 with the language of the rule. The rule allows for the 2 redistribution of the purse when a dog tests positive for a 3 prohibited substance. The purpose of that redistribution is 4 to deter medication violations that might alter the race 5 outcome, harm the animal, or defraud the bettors. Because 6 the stakes races use accumulated points to promote animals 7 to the next round, an animal with a prohibited substance in 8 it during a qualifying round may obtain an unfair advantage 9 that affects the outcome of not only the qualifying, but 10 also the final, round of the stakes race." 11 Staff agrees with the ALJ's finding and 12 respectfully requests that this proposal for decision be 13 adopted. 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Is Lisa Nichols here? 15 MR. HINTON: No, ma'am. 16 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Are you Mr. Hinton? 17 MR. HINTON: Yes, ma'am. 18 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Did you want to testify? 19 MR. HINTON: Yeah. 20 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Come on up. 21 Good morning. 22 MR. HINTON: Good morning. 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes, sir. 24 MR. HINTON: I'm Slim Hinton. I'm the 25 trainer. And that penalty on that money, I received no FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 15 1 money whatsoever. How can they charge me with money I 2 didn't receive? 3 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioners, any 4 questions for Mr. Hinton? 5 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: What do you mean you 6 didn't receive the money? 7 MR. HINTON: On the stake race money, it don't 8 go to the trainers. It went to -- half of it went to the 9 kennel. The other half went to the people that own the 10 dog. 11 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: And so you say you're 12 being penalized? 13 MR. HINTON: I'm being penalized and didn't 14 receive nothing. 15 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: What was your penalty? 16 MR. HINTON: About seven, eight thousand 17 dollars. The bad test and the fine is definitely the 18 trainer's responsibility. And I paid that. But as far as 19 the money, the stakes race money itself, I don't have the 20 money to pay. 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Ms. Flowerday, could you 22 help us? 23 MS. FLOWERDAY: He's obviously talking about 24 the purse money. I'm not aware that the proposal for 25 decision is requiring him to reimburse the purse money. If FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 16 1 he didn't receive it, he obviously can't reimburse it. And 2 that's certainly not what the staff is advocating. If the 3 purse money has already been -- if the purse money has 4 already been distributed, then the people who received that 5 purse money are the ones who need to send it back so that it 6 can be redistributed. I do not think the PFD requires 7 Mr. Hinton to pay that money. 8 And that's part of the reason why we had this 9 rule change that we had proposed earlier in the meeting was 10 to address situations like this so that that money doesn't 11 already get paid out. It gets held until all of the tests 12 clear properly. 13 Collection of the money that's already been 14 distributed so that it can be redistributed is something 15 that the staff will work on with the tracks. But I don't 16 think -- I'm trying to check here with my staff. I don't 17 think the staff is seeking to take that out of Mr. Hinton's 18 pocket if he was not the recipient of those funds. 19 MR. HINTON: My name was the only one on 20 there. 21 MS. KENNISON: The direct penalty to the 22 trainer will be the suspension and the 200-dollar fine. The 23 redistributing of the purse is one that the track and the 24 affected people involved will have to handle. It will 25 not -- there is no judgment for whatever amount towards FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 17 1 Mr. Hinton. That is not the decision. 2 CHAIRPERSON LACY: So, Mr. Hinton, you 3 understand that wherever the purse funds are, that's where 4 they'll be recollected from. 5 MR. HINTON: Well, I don't know. It shouldn't 6 have -- it should have been charged to them to start with 7 and not to me is what it looks like. And this dog, Lex 8 Apache, got a bad test for the residue for caffeine, which 9 was only the residue it said. Now, since then -- I got 10 penalized for that and fined. Since then we've got some 11 tests for cocaine. Nothing was did. What's the difference 12 between a trace of cocaine and a residue? I don't 13 understand it. 14 MS. FLOWERDAY: Commissioners, I don't know 15 what Mr. Hinton is talking about with respect to the -- with 16 respect to the cocaine positives. I'd have to go back and 17 do some research and check out what kind of positives we've 18 had. I don't know what he's talking about. 19 MS. KENNISON: The ALJ was presented with past 20 infractions for medication violations at the hearing and was 21 able to differentiate from what happened there versus what 22 happened with Mr. Hinton. The only one I can guess at that 23 he speaks of is one where there was a positive finding and 24 there was no redistributing of the purse because that 25 particular case, the dog didn't place and therefore didn't FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 18 1 earn a purse. Aside from that, all of these penalties have 2 been consistent; and the ALJ made reference to that. 3 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Mr. Hinton, our 5 documents say that Lex Apache was found positive for 6 theobromine. 7 MR. HINTON: Which is a residue from the 8 caffeine. 9 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: And it says Big Chief 10 was caffeine and theobromine. 11 MR. HINTON: That's right. That's right. 12 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I just wanted to 13 clarify that. 14 MR. HINTON: That's right. But what I didn't 15 understand is, you know, any trace at all should be a 16 positive of anything. I mean, don't treat me that way and 17 somebody else different. 18 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I just don't think we 19 know the specifics of the other case. There's no way that 20 we can comment on the other case. 21 MR. HINTON: They need to check deeper then. 22 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: We just don't know. 23 MR. HINTON: I think the Commission ought to 24 check deeper and find out what's going on. There's too much 25 deals going on one-sided. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 19 1 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any other questions for 2 Mr. Hinton? 3 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Has the owner and 4 the kennel refused to pay the money back? 5 MR. HINTON: Yes, sir. They haven't been 6 charged. I'm the only one that's been charged, see. 7 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Ms. Flowerday, did you want 8 to speak? 9 MS. FLOWERDAY: Until the Commission takes 10 final action on this matter, the redistribution of the purse 11 is not final either; and so they can't pay back the money -- 12 they're not required to pay back the money until you all 13 tell them that they have to pay back the money. If you 14 adopt the proposal for decision requiring them to pay back 15 the money, then we will take what steps we need to to get 16 that money paid back. 17 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Then they'll receive the 18 correspondence -- 19 MS. FLOWERDAY: That's correct. 20 COMMISSIONER BOYD: -- and go through the 21 channels to get that information. 22 MS. FLOWERDAY: That's correct. 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you. 24 Thank you, Mr. Hinton. 25 MR. HINTON: Thank you. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 20 1 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Does anyone else wish to 2 testify? 3 Did staff have any other comments? 4 MS. KENNISON: No. 5 MS. FLOWERDAY: May I make one comment? 6 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes. 7 MS. FLOWERDAY: The assertions that Mr. Hinton 8 is making with respect to unequal treatment is something 9 that I take very seriously. And staff -- you have my word 10 that staff will go back and check it out. I don't think 11 that we've got a situation of unequal treatment. We deal 12 with every positive that gets reported to us by the lab. 13 I also know that there's a lot of information 14 that kind of floats through the racing world, some of which 15 is based in fact and some of which is -- you know, maybe has 16 a different source. But we will check it out and we will 17 make sure that the appropriate action is taken. 18 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you. Thank you very 19 much, Ms. Flowerday. 20 Commissioners, any questions? 21 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Are we going to make 22 a motion for them to give the money back? 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I believe -- and I'll ask 24 Ms. Kennison to confirm this. I believe that our 25 appropriate motion would be to adopt the proposal for FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 21 1 decision, to decline to adopt the proposal for decision, or, 2 if we chose, to remand it or modify it. 3 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: May I ask a question? 4 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Absolutely. 5 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I mean, it's clear -- 6 am I missing something here? It's clear that when purses 7 are redistributed, that is not intended to harm the 8 trainer. That is intended to simply be fair -- the feeling 9 is that the outcome of the race may have been altered by the 10 prohibited substance and therefore the purse is 11 redistributed to be fair to the other owners and 12 participants in the race. Is that correct? 13 MS. FLOWERDAY: That's correct. 14 MS. KENNISON: Yes. 15 MS. FLOWERDAY: I believe that the reason why 16 Mr. Hinton's name is on the filing is because he's the 17 trainer of record, which means he's the absolute ensurer in 18 accordance with the statute. So he was the one against whom 19 the positive would have to be adjudicated in the first 20 place. The fact that it has ramifications for people other 21 than he -- there are a lot of other people who are -- have 22 an interest in the outcome of this proceeding whose name is 23 not on this. 24 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Right. 25 MS. FLOWERDAY: So it is not -- the FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 22 1 redistribution of the purse is basically a result of 2 declaring that that horse was ineligible to have won the 3 race because he raced under the influence of a prohibited 4 drug. 5 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Right. 6 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: I have a sort of general 7 question. If there's other parties impacted or other 8 persons impacted by this particular proceeding, do our rules 9 provide for notifying those individuals so they can 10 participate or somehow intervene in this action? 11 MS. KENNISON: Any aggrieved party has 12 standing to participate in the hearing, and at least one 13 kennel owner was present at the hearing and had the 14 opportunity to be -- to testify and to be represented by 15 counsel. 16 CHAIRPERSON LACY: So the kennel owners did 17 have notice and at least one kennel owner appeared. 18 MS. KENNISON: That's correct. 19 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Well, I want to make 20 sure. I mean, are they notified as part of the process? I 21 mean, do we have the same thing that exists for horse 22 tracks -- I mean, for the racetracks for the horse racing 23 also? Let's say you're talking about redistribution of a 24 hundred thousand dollars as opposed to seven or eight 25 thousand dollars. I mean, what I'm concerned about is: Do FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 23 1 we have a system in place that notifies the parties who may 2 ultimately be affected by a redistribution, to give them the 3 opportunity to participate in the hearing, assist the 4 trainer or the absolute ensurer if they believe that there's 5 a basis to assist the absolute ensurer on that? That's my 6 concern. 7 So the fact that a kennel owner was there and 8 may have been present, I'm just wondering, is everybody 9 who's affected by the redistribution notified of this 10 particular hearing? 11 MS. FLOWERDAY: I don't know that it's a part 12 of our rules and I don't believe the practice is that we 13 notify all the affected parties of the initial hearing at 14 the racetracks. When a ruling has been -- has been issued 15 by the steward and it's been appealed to the Commission, 16 before we go to SOAH, our practice is that we notify the 17 other owners who would be affected by a redistribution of 18 the purse. 19 Typically, though, it's going to be the person 20 who finished first or higher up in the rankings that's going 21 to be protesting the ruling because they're the one that's 22 going to be losing the purse. The folks on down the line 23 are the ones who will be the recipients of the additional 24 purse money if the stewards -- or the judges' 25 disqualification is upheld. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 24 1 But the practice is, yes, on appeal, we notify 2 these other folks so that they do have an opportunity to 3 participate. 4 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: But do we have a rule 5 that requires that we notify, for example, in this instance, 6 the dog owner and the -- you know, the kennel owner and 7 the -- what was the other one? He mentioned another entity 8 or individual that would normally have received money from 9 the distribution. 10 MS. FLOWERDAY: I think there's just the 11 greyhound owner and the kennel owner. The trainer is an 12 employee of the kennel owner. 13 MS. McHUGH: Madam Chairwoman? 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes. 15 MS. McHUGH: It seems like to me, while we're 16 in the process of modifying this rule anyway, we ought to 17 address this issue. I'd like to have more information on 18 this as well because it seems to me that all interested 19 parties ought to be notified from the very beginning of a 20 process like this. I don't know whether my fellow 21 Commissioners agree with me or not. 22 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: No, I do. I'm sort of 23 concerned if, in fact, we're going to take an action that's 24 going to -- we may be hearing from somebody at the next 25 meeting saying, "You all approved this or affirmed the FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 25 1 decision against Mr. Hinton and now for the first time I'm 2 learning that I'm going to receive less money or I'm going 3 to have to take money out of my pocket that I thought I had 4 back in February." 5 So that's my concern, that maybe everybody 6 needs to be notified up front. If it's in the rules, that's 7 fine. If it's not in the rules, I think we should address 8 it and maybe staff put something together for us to 9 consider. 10 CHAIRPERSON LACY: But in this particular case 11 they were notified? 12 MS. FLOWERDAY: I believe the kennel owner and 13 the owner of the greyhound knew of the initial proceeding at 14 the track. 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Did someone want to -- I 16 keep hearing -- did you want to testify? 17 MR. WEST: Yes. I'd like to ask a few 18 questions. 19 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Did you sign a card? 20 MR. WEST: No, I didn't. I didn't know I was 21 going to testify. 22 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. We need for you to 23 be sworn in then. 24 MS. FLOWERDAY: He can sign the card. 25 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Or if you'll sign a card. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 26 1 And if you'll identify yourself to us. 2 MR. WEST: Ferd West. I'm the president of 3 the FMC Kennel, Incorporated. 4 And I've been following this case, but no way 5 have I been notified. I went to the original hearing at 6 Corpus and I was told that I was not involved in it. 7 Mr. Scott Kearns or the head judge. And I was told I was 8 not involved in this hearing. 9 I sat and listened, but then nowhere has it 10 been established on who's paying this money back. And since 11 nothing like this has happened before, we wasn't aware of 12 what was going to be done. That's another reason I'm up 13 here today. 14 What we're looking at is the second round and 15 the third round. And we've discussed this with the Texas 16 Greyhound Association and they said that they did not want 17 the money redistributed because of the way this happened. 18 This dog went on and ran the third round and won it, no 19 positive test. He ran the fourth round and won it, no 20 positive test. This greyhound was very capable of doing 21 it. 22 Whatever happened was most likely an accident, 23 and we don't want to be charged with -- not when we're 24 seeing inconsistency on the ruling in Corpus with the 25 judges. I think this is something that needs to be checked FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 27 1 out also, several things that needs to be checked out on 2 this before a -- I think before you all need to give a 3 ruling. That's all we're asking for. 4 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Sir, may I ask you a 5 question? 6 MR. WEST: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: You are a kennel 8 owner. 9 MR. WEST: Well, yes, sir. We are -- I'm 10 president of the -- 11 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: You're president of a 12 kennel. 13 MR. WEST: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: And Mr. Hinton, what is 15 his relationship with you? 16 MR. WEST: He is our trainer and he is the 17 vice-president of FMC Kennel. 18 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: So he is employed by 19 the kennel -- 20 MR. WEST: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: -- to train the dogs -- 22 MR. WEST: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: -- that are in the 24 kennel's care and custody. 25 MR. WEST: Yes. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 28 1 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: And the owner of the 2 dog -- is this dog owned by one particular owner or a group 3 of owners? 4 MR. WEST: One particular owner, Henry Wiatrek 5 in Poth, Texas. 6 This was a Texas-bred stake race that this 7 greyhound was in which was the -- added monies was from the 8 Texas Greyhound Association. And we've not -- as far as I 9 know, there have not been any complaints with these people 10 on wanting this money reimbursed because of the situation 11 it's been in. 12 I've talked with Mr. Gerald Erwin. He's the 13 executive director for the Texas Greyhound Association. He 14 said he's had no complaints because everybody seems to be 15 waiting to see what's being done here. It's going to be a 16 large impact on the greyhound industry. 17 But one of the things that I would like is 18 really checking out the consistency on the ruling from the 19 Corpus Christi judges. 20 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any other questions? 21 Thank you, sir. 22 MR. WEST: I'll go ahead and sign this card. 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you. 24 Ms. Kennison, do you have a copy of Ruling 25 741? FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 29 1 MS. KENNISON: No, I do not. I didn't bring 2 it. 3 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Madam Chair? 4 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: If I may. 6 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I think the issue has 8 come up as to while we're in the process of reviewing these 9 rules and the process of notification, which I generally 10 agree with -- but correct me if I'm wrong. There are times 11 when our stewards will call trainers in and have sometimes 12 informal, sometimes formal discussions. And I think, you 13 know, we need to be careful that just because they're called 14 in to see the stewards that the whole world isn't notified 15 of it, if that makes any sense to anybody. 16 I think there's a process in which 17 notification should be begun. But I think there's a lot of 18 investigation that goes on. I'm not entirely certain of the 19 exact process. But I don't think we want to be 20 incriminating people and notifying everybody in the world 21 that they're having a hearing before stewards until it's 22 necessary that we do that. 23 Help me out here. Do you follow what I'm 24 saying there, Ms. Flowerday? 25 MS. FLOWERDAY: I follow very well. At some FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 30 1 point there had to be a line drawn about when and to whom 2 the notice got given for certain proceedings. The stewards 3 and the judges routinely will have very informal proceedings 4 on medication positives. They will fill out a form that's a 5 notice of alleged violation. It will tell them the race. 6 It will tell them the animal that's involved. It will tell 7 them the rule that was violated. And it will have a 8 suggested penalty. And the licensee has the ability to just 9 waive his right to a hearing and accept the penalty. In a 10 medication positive that can include redistribution of the 11 purse. 12 With respect to medication violations, the 13 Commission has adopted -- or the staff has adopted penalty 14 guidelines and it's very clear which medications fall in 15 which class, what the penalty is for violations of 16 particular medications, whether or not that involves a purse 17 redistribution. 18 It very well may be that, you know, for the 19 higher level drugs, for the ones that will involve a purse 20 redistribution, that's something that maybe we need to take 21 another look at on our notice proceedings. Typically, 22 particularly at the greyhound tracks, most folks know what's 23 going on. It's just -- it's a small community and there's 24 not a lot of secrets at a greyhound track. 25 In this particular case -- staff will be more FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 31 1 than happy to try to take another look at the notice 2 requirements and we'll see what we can come up with that 3 would perhaps address some of these issues. 4 In this particular case I would point out that 5 Mr. Hinton was represented by counsel. Counsel was well 6 aware of the potential penalties that were involved in this 7 case. So I don't think that this is a big surprise. 8 MS. McHUGH: I have one other question. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes. 10 MS. McHUGH: Ms. Flowerday, then could you 11 just explain procedurally how you bring those who must make 12 the redistribution within the jurisdiction of the Racing 13 Commission? 14 MS. FLOWERDAY: Mr. West and Mr. Hinton are 15 correct in that we've never had this situation before. It 16 is not very often that we redistribute purses at greyhound 17 tracks. My guess is that at this particular point, if the 18 Commission adopts this and orders the redistribution, we 19 will contact the people who received the money and ask them 20 to refund it to the racetrack so that it can then be 21 redistributed to the rightful owners. If they refuse, then 22 we'll see what kind of authority we have to do something 23 about it at that time. 24 MS. McHUGH: But there are no rules that 25 address this now; is that correct? FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 32 1 MS. FLOWERDAY: There are rules that call for 2 the redistribution of the purse. I don't think we have a 3 rule that specifically says what happens if somebody fails 4 to refund money that's due back. 5 MS. McHUGH: But are there procedural rules 6 that address to whom the Commission then goes to obtain the 7 funds that must be redistributed and how the redistribution 8 is done? Do we have those kinds of procedural rules -- 9 MS. FLOWERDAY: Yes. 10 MS. McHUGH: -- in place? 11 MS. FLOWERDAY: The judges know to whom the 12 money should go and we know who has the money and so now 13 it's just a question of how to get it back from them. If 14 they refuse to pay it, then we will take another look at our 15 enforcement options with respect to those people. 16 MS. McHUGH: You've used a good word. And 17 that's the enforcement. And, you know, I guess my concern 18 would be if we are sort of -- and I don't mean -- I don't 19 mean this in any pejorative sense -- but making it up as we 20 go along, in other words, we don't have rules because this 21 is the first time, I'd hate for us to be challenged on the 22 way in which we went about redistributing these funds. Do 23 you understand my concern? 24 MS. FLOWERDAY: Yes, I do. This is what I 25 think would happen. And I apologize that it is kind of off FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 33 1 the cuff. But if the Commission orders the redistribution 2 and, in enforcing that order, the staff asks for the money 3 back and gives them a time frame in which to pay it back, if 4 they fail to pay it back, then the staff would have to 5 initiate an enforcement action against those people which 6 would then be subject to a hearing before SOAH that would 7 eventually come up to you because they would be in violation 8 of a Commission order. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: And, Ms. Flowerday, do you 10 remember Ruling 741 and the redistribution language that was 11 used in it? 12 MS. FLOWERDAY: No, I don't. Typically they 13 just say the purse -- the horse -- excuse me, the greyhound 14 is disqualified and the purse is ordered redistributed 15 according to this order of finish and they just bump the 16 dogs up. 17 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Schulze? 18 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Mr. West, I believe it 19 was, alluded to the Texas Greyhound Association, I think, 20 having some problem with this or -- have we had official 21 word from the Texas Greyhound Association and were they 22 present -- were they an interested party that was able to 23 testify before the administrative law judge? 24 MS. FLOWERDAY: My understanding was that they 25 were present at the hearing before the judges and testified FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 34 1 at that point. I do not know whether or not they were at 2 the SOAH hearing. 3 Were they at the SOAH hearing? 4 MS. KENNISON: I believe so, but did not 5 testify. 6 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: And have we had 7 official word from them, their position on this issue? 8 MS. FLOWERDAY: I have had conversations with 9 Mr. Erwin. I have not heard that they were dissatisfied 10 with the rule change that the staff has put forth, which is 11 a way to rectify the situation in the future. And he has 12 not talked to me about what should be done in this case, and 13 I suppose that's because he did testify and had input into 14 the proceeding before the racing judges. 15 MS. McHUGH: What was his testimony? 16 MS. FLOWERDAY: Were any of us there? 17 MS. KENNISON: They didn't testify. He was 18 just present. 19 MS. FLOWERDAY: That was at the SOAH hearing. 20 MS. KENNISON: SOAH, yes. 21 MS. FLOWERDAY: But I do believe he testified 22 at the judges' hearing. I don't know what the gist of his 23 testimony was. 24 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Madam Chairman? 25 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes, Commissioner FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 35 1 Rutherford. 2 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Explain this. 3 Mr. Hinton is a representative of this stable and this 4 kennel and he was notified so they were all notified. I 5 don't understand this. He's the absolute ensurer, so why is 6 he not responsible? I know on horses the trainer is 7 responsible all over the country. We'll have to write a 8 book about this thick if we start bringing owners in. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: But, Ms. Flowerday and 10 Ms. Kennison, as I understand -- 11 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: He was notified. 12 CHAIRPERSON LACY: He was definitely 13 notified. 14 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: He just said he was 15 the vice-president of that organization, so the organization 16 was notified. 17 CHAIRPERSON LACY: And as I understand it, the 18 other -- the owners were notified as well. 19 MS. KENNISON: That's correct. 20 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rogers? 21 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Well, it would appear to 22 me that the people who feel like they weren't notified are 23 going to have another round of this if they refuse to pay 24 back the money. Two of them who are paying back the money 25 are sitting here now if they represent the kennel who's FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 36 1 going to be paying back a portion. The owner, we don't know 2 whether he was notified for sure or not. But if they 3 receive a bill and don't pay it, they'll have a chance to 4 receive their notification at the time. 5 So it appears to me that everybody who needed 6 notice on this, the people who are going to receive the 7 money, the only thing they can say is, "We would like to 8 have the money." So there's not a whole lot that can be 9 said there. So it would appear to me that everybody who 10 needed notice of this particular issue were here. We're 11 only deciding whether or not to uphold the judge's ruling or 12 to modify it or to reject it or to remand it. 13 And I would, I guess, at this point make a 14 motion that we accept the -- that we adopt the decision of 15 the administrative law judge. 16 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: I second. 17 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rogers has so 18 moved. Commissioner Rutherford has seconded. 19 Any discussion? 20 MS. McHUGH: Madam Chairman? 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes. 22 MS. McHUGH: The only discussion I'd have 23 about this is just to once more clarify the parties who will 24 be responsible for the redistribution, that it is not the 25 appellant in this case but rather those who are in actual FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 37 1 possession of the funds. Is that correct, Ms. Flowerday? 2 MS. FLOWERDAY: That's correct. 3 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any other questions or 4 comments? 5 All those in favor of a motion to adopt the 6 proposal for decision please signify by saying aye. 7 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 8 CHAIRPERSON LACY: All opposed? 9 The motion passes unanimously. 10 Ms. Flowerday, I'll direct you to draft an 11 order consistent with that vote. If you have one prepared, 12 we'll be happy to sign it today. 13 MS. FLOWERDAY: May I ask a clarifying 14 question? Given the discussion about the notice issues, 15 would you like the staff to take a look at that and come 16 back with a report and a possible proposed rule at the next 17 meeting? 18 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I think that would be very 19 helpful. And I think in the future if we have anything like 20 this in front of us, if you could bring the backup material 21 with you so that if questions like this come up, we'd be 22 prepared, that would be great. Thank you, Ms. Flowerday. 23 We'll move on to general business. I'll 24 recognize Mr. Craig for a budget and finance update. 25 MR. CRAIG: Madam Chair, Commissioners, for FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 38 1 the record, my name is Tim Craig. I'm the chief financial 2 officer for the Racing Commission. I'd like to present to 3 you today our operating budget status through the 31st of 4 October of this year. 5 Two months have elapsed in this fiscal year so 6 far. We have spent $687,000 on our 4.3-million-dollar 7 budget. We're on track as far as our budget goes. Our 8 limitations that are set forth in Senate Bill 1 regarding 9 our full-time equivalent employees and our out-of-state 10 travel cap, we are both within those caps at this time and I 11 don't foresee any problems in staying under those caps for 12 the remainder of the fiscal year. 13 Are there any questions? 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any questions? 15 Does this require any action, Ms. Flowerday? 16 MS. FLOWERDAY: (Nod negative). 17 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you, Mr. Craig. 18 MR. CRAIG: Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON LACY: We'll now move to the 20 selection of the animal drug testing laboratory for the year 21 2002. 22 Ms. Flowerday, I'll recognize you for 23 comments. 24 MS. FLOWERDAY: Commissioners, there was a 25 committee put together of Mr. Rutherford, Dr. Schulze, FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 39 1 myself, Tim Craig, and Dr. Stewart Marsh to prepare the 2 request for proposal and the -- and receive the bids for 3 drug testing services for race animals for 2002. Only one 4 bid was received. That was submitted by the Texas 5 Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Lab's drug testing 6 laboratory. 7 The committee members that were of the staff 8 level reviewed those -- reviewed that bid to determine 9 whether or not TVMDL is qualified to perform those 10 services. They have been in the past and, according to the 11 bid that they submitted, they are qualified; and there is a 12 chart in your notebook behind Tab 5 that describes the 13 various elements of the RFP and the point value that we gave 14 to them with respect to each item. The point value is a 15 little less critical this year since there was only one 16 bidder. 17 One of the elements of the RFP this year that 18 was slightly different from prior years is that we asked the 19 bidders to submit the price that other jurisdictions pay for 20 their drug testing services for comparable services; and so 21 on pages 5-3 and 5-4, that's where the price element is. We 22 list the prices that were provided by TVMDL in their bid, 23 and then on 5-4 we list the prices that we found in a survey 24 of states that Dr. Marsh did for comparable testing. 25 I will point out that the prices that were bid FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 40 1 by TVMDL are slightly lower than last year. The most 2 noticeable -- the biggest difference is in their canine, 3 their per-sample canine bid, which is four dollars less than 4 it was last year, although they are also bidding slightly 5 smaller amounts for supplies and for transportation. 6 It's probably safe to say that, generally 7 speaking, TVMDL's bid is on the high side when you compare 8 it with other states. And so at this point it's up to the 9 Commission to decide whether or not you want to award the 10 bid to TVMDL or direct the committee to try again. 11 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you, Ms. Flowerday. 12 Any questions or comments from the 13 Commissioners? 14 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Madam Chair? 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER BOYD: I have a question. 17 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Boyd. 18 COMMISSIONER BOYD: I noticed on 5-1 under B, 19 No. 3, that we still say in our notes "No BS from Marsha 20 Farrar". 21 MS. FLOWERDAY: I don't think that is a -- 22 that's not a pass/fail type of requirement. That was just a 23 note that, of some of their personnel, one of the people did 24 not have a Bachelor's degree. It just -- it affected the 25 point value. They could have had 10 points if all of them FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 41 1 had had BS -- or Bachelor's degrees. That's why we only 2 gave them eight. 3 COMMISSIONER BOYD: It's not significant 4 enough to -- 5 MS. FLOWERDAY: It's not a pass/fail item. 6 All of the items that are pass/fail are clearly listed as 7 pass/fail. If any of those pass/fail items had been listed 8 as a fail, then they would not be considered qualified to 9 receive the bid. 10 COMMISSIONER BOYD: So it's strictly a 11 notation. It's not significant enough to warrant any 12 concern on our part. 13 MS. FLOWERDAY: I would say that's a fair 14 statement. 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Garza? 16 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Under C-2, I mean, I 17 think their points in the past was very good; but why would 18 C-2 not have the highest rating there? 19 MS. FLOWERDAY: There was one sample last 20 year, one split sample, that did not get confirmed as I 21 recall. That's the reason why we marked them off one. 22 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Out of how many 23 approximately? 24 MS. FLOWERDAY: I'm sorry? 25 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Out of how many that FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 42 1 were approximately taken? How many samples? 2 MS. FLOWERDAY: Of splits that were -- 3 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: You're saying that you 4 take off one point because they had one that wasn't 5 confirmed? 6 MS. FLOWERDAY: Yes. And it's probably not a 7 point per sample type thing. It's just that we probably -- 8 if we were going to do that, it would be a fraction of a 9 point. 10 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Hundreds. Were there 11 hundreds of splits sent off? Is that a -- not that many? 12 MS. FLOWERDAY: I don't think so, no. John 13 T., do you know how many splits we send off each year? Less 14 than 20? 15 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. 16 MS. FLOWERDAY: Less than 20. 17 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I thought it was more 18 than that. 19 MS. FLOWERDAY: No. 20 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any other questions? 21 Any testimony? 22 I'd entertain a motion to select Texas 23 Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Laboratory to serve as the 24 year 2002 laboratory for animal drug testing. 25 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: So move. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 43 1 MS. McHUGH: Second. 2 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Schulze has 3 moved. Commissioner McHugh has seconded. 4 All those in favor? 5 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 6 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any opposed? 7 The motion passes unanimously. 8 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: I'd like to say one 9 word, Madam Chairman. 10 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: I've checked with 12 people all over the country and A&M has a very high 13 reputation. And a good friend of mine is chairman of the 14 Kentucky Commission and they're thinking about changing to 15 A&M. Also the University of California uses a lot of 16 students for their testing. So I feel pretty good about who 17 we have. 18 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you, Commissioner. 19 We'll now move to proceedings on racetracks. 20 The first consideration will be the allocation and breed 21 split of the escrowed horse purse account for the year 2002 22 at Tab 6. 23 Ms. Flowerday? 24 MS. FLOWERDAY: Commissioners, behind Tab 6 in 25 your notebooks is an agreement entered into by the five FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 44 1 operating horse racetracks agreeing to a particular 2 allocation from the escrowed horse purse account for 2002. 3 There is also an agreement that was reached 4 very recently and modified as late as this morning that 5 agrees, by all the parties, including the breed registries, 6 for a breed split of the escrowed horse purse account; and 7 that breed split would be two percent off the top for the 8 minor breeds, the balance to be split 70 percent to 9 Thoroughbreds and 30 percent for Quarter Horses. 10 I have a chart that Sammy Jackson prepared 11 that shows how much money per day the agreed-to allocation 12 would provide to each of the racetracks. We didn't have 13 time to do complete new projections because the global 14 agreement that was entered into by all the racetracks 15 significantly changes how the whole allocation process works 16 and it includes a tiered level and that's going to 17 complicate the projection process and we simply just didn't 18 have time to redo all those projections. 19 So this was pretty much the best we could do. 20 Given the agreed-to breed split and the agreed-to 21 allocation, each track will get this additional amount of 22 purse money per breed given their race dates for 2002. 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you, Ms. Flowerday. 24 Did any representatives from any of the 25 racetracks wish to speak? FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 45 1 Good morning. 2 MR. SEVEDGE: Madam Chair and Commissioners, 3 I'm Barry Sevedge with Gulf Greyhound Park, Gillespie County 4 Fair, and representing the parties that have worked real 5 diligently on another agreement that the purse allocation 6 before you is part of. 7 We -- let me digress on that for a little 8 bit. The racing in Texas has changed a lot in the last 10 9 years and we have had the cross-species simulcasting law 10 changed that has had some unintended consequences or some -- 11 that need to be adjusted, specifically cannibalization of 12 horses by dogs and dogs by horses and cannibalization of 13 handle between tracks. 14 And in an attempt to try to mitigate this 15 cannibalization and make cross-species simulcasting work, 16 all constituents, all official -- officially recognized 17 groups in the industry have gotten together to try to 18 address these problems. And in doing so, we obtained a 19 legal opinion on what flexibility is allowed under the 20 present law. 21 We worked two years to redefine the 22 traditional relationships that we thought were acceptable 23 for cross-species. And we worked two years not because we 24 didn't play well together but because this is extremely 25 complicated. Everything is interdependent. If you change FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 46 1 one element of how the purse is determined, it affects 2 everybody. And that is part of the change that's happened 3 in our industry. Everyone is more interrelated and 4 interdependent. A long time ago you had a local market and 5 that was it. Now markets are international. And 6 cross-species simulcast is a product of that. 7 We -- Texas is the only state where all the 8 constituents have sat down and tried to work out how to 9 allocate purses among the various breeds, meaning greyhounds 10 and horses. This cross-species purse allocation for the 11 horse tracks as well as the cross-species allocation that 12 the TGA is recommending for the greyhound tracks are part of 13 this overall agreement to make cross-species simulcasting 14 work in the state. 15 And I'm requesting today that you all will 16 approve this allocation and please don't amend it because, 17 as a part of the whole, it means we have to start over. And 18 on a personal note, my life is just now getting back to 19 normal and I'm not looking forward to two more years locked 20 in a room with these guys. 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: We understand. 22 MR. SEVEDGE: So that's it. If there's any 23 questions. 24 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any questions? 25 Thank you. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 47 1 Anyone else wishing to give testimony? 2 So, Ms. Flowerday, the appropriate motion 3 would be -- if we were to approve this, the appropriate 4 motion would be to approve the allocation and breed split of 5 the escrowed horse purse account for the year 2002 as 6 requested and agreed to by the Texas pari-mutuel horse 7 racetracks? 8 MS. FLOWERDAY: (Nod affirmative). 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I'd entertain such a 10 motion. 11 COMMISSIONER BOYD: I'd so move. 12 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Boyd has so 13 moved. 14 Do I hear a second? 15 MR. ARCHER: Second. 16 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Archer has 17 seconded. 18 Any discussion? 19 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 20 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any opposed? 22 The motion passes unanimously. 23 You all don't have to play together as much. 24 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Madam Chair? 25 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 48 1 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: May I have a moment? 2 CHAIRPERSON LACY: You sure may. 3 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I guess as the senior 4 member here, I just want to say that I want to congratulate 5 the industry on this. I know there was a lot of give and 6 take. It wasn't perfect for everybody. I know that some of 7 the leaders of some of these organizations are going to take 8 some heat from some of your members because your members may 9 think that you caved in or you didn't get the best deal that 10 you could have for your racetrack or for your breed. 11 But I have, for one, noticed in the last 18 to 12 24 months much more cooperation amongst all of you and it is 13 appreciated and you're to be congratulated. And if you're 14 to move this industry forward in Texas, you know that you're 15 going to have to have that same sort of cooperation in front 16 of other groups besides the Texas Racing Commission and you 17 would be best served to continue your spirit of 18 cooperation. 19 It's not going to be perfect for all of you, 20 but I think what we're trying to accomplish is that the 21 whole picture gets better. And so again, thank you for your 22 cooperation and congratulations and keep up the good work. 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: And thank you, Commissioner 24 Schulze. Those were very appropriate comments. 25 We'll now turn to the allocation of the FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 49 1 accredited Texas-bred money among the minor breeds at Tab 2 7. 3 Ms. Flowerday? 4 MS. FLOWERDAY: Commissioners, as I just 5 mentioned and as is our practice, the Commission usually 6 just approves a flat percentage off the top for the minor 7 breeds that then gets allocated between the Arabians and the 8 Paints. 9 As we've done in years past, I solicited input 10 from both of the breed registries asking for their suggested 11 allocation for 2002 and those letters are in your packet. 12 The first memo, though, behind Tab 7 is mine to you which is 13 actually -- since the parties couldn't agree on anything, 14 staff is putting forward a suggested formula. 15 In the past we have allocated that money by 16 agreement with the two breed registries based on each 17 breed's relative number of starts to the total minor breed 18 starts. Usually we've been able to do that based on an 19 actual number because the allocation hasn't been made until 20 after the beginning of the next calendar year. This year 21 we're just asking you to go ahead and approve that concept, 22 approve the formula for 2002, and we will do the calculation 23 in early January once we have final 2001 numbers. 24 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any questions for 25 Ms. Flowerday? FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 50 1 Mr. Wilson, did you want to testify? 2 MR. WILSON: We will support the 3 recommendation of the Racing Commission. 4 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you. 5 Any other testimony? 6 Commissioners, any questions? Any comments? 7 So, Ms. Flowerday, the appropriate motion, if 8 we were to approve your recommendation, would be to approve 9 the formulas as set out in your memorandum for allocating 10 Texas-bred incentive program money among the minor breeds of 11 horses. 12 MS. FLOWERDAY: That's correct. 13 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Do I hear such a motion? 14 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: So move. 15 MS. McHUGH: Second. 16 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rogers has 17 moved. Commissioner McHugh has seconded. 18 All those -- any discussion? 19 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 20 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: The motion passes 22 unanimously. 23 Tab 8, allocation by the Texas Greyhound 24 Association of greyhound purse money for the year 2002. 25 Ms. Flowerday? FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 51 1 MS. FLOWERDAY: Commissioners, this is -- the 2 letter from the Texas Greyhound Association implements a 3 rule that you just voted to adopt earlier in the meeting 4 whereby the Texas Greyhound Association brings to you a 5 proposed allocation of the purse money that they get to 6 distribute to the greyhound tracks. 7 Sammy Jackson is here to address any specific 8 questions, but I think I can -- basically this formula is 9 based on each track's horse handle. Each track's share of 10 the distributable amount the TGA is able to distribute is 11 equal to the proportion of that track's horse handle to the 12 total horse handle at all the greyhound tracks. And Sammy 13 Jackson can answer any questions. 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: If there are any questions, 15 Commissioners, I think you need to address them to Sammy 16 Jackson. Any questions? 17 Anyone wishing to testify? 18 I'd entertain a motion to approve the 19 allocation requested by the Texas Greyhound Association of 20 greyhound purse money for the year 2002. 21 MS. McHUGH: So moved. 22 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner McHugh has 23 moved. 24 Do I hear a second? 25 MR. ARCHER: Second. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 52 1 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Archer has 2 seconded. 3 Any discussion? 4 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 5 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 6 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any opposed? 7 The motion passes unanimously. 8 We'll now turn to a request by Gulf Greyhound 9 Park for a change in race dates. 10 Barry, did you want to -- 11 MR. SEVEDGE: Unfortunately, we've never found 12 a way to compete well with the Super Bowl. Our employees 13 don't pay attention and most of the customers don't come. 14 And we just want to adjust our schedule to be closed during 15 the Super Bowl, that one evening. 16 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any questions, 17 Commissioners? 18 Ms. Flowerday, any comments? 19 MS. FLOWERDAY: Staff has no objection. 20 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I'd entertain a motion to 21 approve the request by Gulf Greyhound Park for a change in 22 race dates for the year 2002 as reflected in their letter 23 dated October 9. 24 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: So move. 25 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rogers has FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 53 1 moved. 2 Do I hear a second? 3 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Second. 4 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Boyd has 5 seconded. 6 Any discussion? 7 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 8 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any opposed? 10 The motion passes unanimously. 11 We'll now turn to a request by Lone Star Park 12 for approval of a transfer of ownership interest. 13 Ms. Flowerday? 14 MS. FLOWERDAY: Commissioners, we received a 15 letter from counsel for Ms. Ellajean Martin Snyder 16 requesting approval of a change in ownership. She is 17 obviously a current owner. She wants to transfer her 18 ownership share to a trust for the benefit of her family. 19 And she will remain as the trustee. 20 We're talking about an ownership share in the 21 actual licensee of less than one percent. Her ownership is 22 in the form of a limited partnership share and that limited 23 partnership owns 88.1 percent of the actual licensee. 24 Because there's no change in people -- under 25 normal circumstances, if a share, an ownership share, of a FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 54 1 racetrack is held in trust, it's the trustee that usually 2 gets the background check; and she's already been approved; 3 so this is pretty much a paper type transfer. And staff has 4 no objections to your approval. 5 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you, Ms. Flowerday. 6 Anyone wishing to give testimony? 7 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I just have a 8 question. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I have, I guess, just a 11 procedural question. But I notice that it's -- the people 12 who would benefit from the trust are listed and they're 13 members of Ms. Snyder's family obviously. But in the event 14 that -- you said the trustee is investigated, but what about 15 in the event that some of these other people are not members 16 of the immediate family or whatever? Would we investigate 17 them as well? 18 MS. FLOWERDAY: We have that right. We have 19 the power. And it would depend on the particular 20 circumstances. In this particular situation we're talking 21 about less than one percent. 22 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Right. 23 MS. FLOWERDAY: We probably would not because 24 we would just weigh it against the cost of doing the 25 investigation. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 55 1 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Sure. 2 MS. FLOWERDAY: And there are various levels. 3 You know, we can do a certain amount ourselves. Some of 4 them, if they're more complicated, we usually ask for the 5 assistance of the Department of Public Safety. And along 6 that same line, DPS always has the right to ask for more 7 extensive background checks even if staff doesn't. So I 8 think that we would just have to weigh each situation kind 9 of on its own merits. 10 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Right. Okay. I just 11 wanted to ask that question. 12 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you, Ms. Flowerday. 13 Any other questions, discussion? 14 I'd entertain a motion to approve the request 15 by Lone Star Park, Limited, for a transfer of ownership 16 interest. 17 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: So moved. 18 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Schulze has so 19 moved. 20 Do I hear a second? 21 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Second. 22 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rutherford has 23 seconded. 24 Any discussion? 25 All those in favor signify by saying aye. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 56 1 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 2 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any opposed? 3 The motion passes unanimously. 4 We'll now turn to a request by Manor Downs for 5 a change in the 2002 live race dates. 6 Mr. Burleson? 7 MR. BURLESON: Commissioners, after our last 8 meeting, Paula Flowerday and I met with Howard Phillips from 9 Manor Downs to talk about ways that we might possibly 10 address some of the concerns of the horsemen that spoke to 11 you at the last meeting regarding Thoroughbred opportunities 12 in this geographical area for horses that for some reason 13 could not compete at Lone Star Park. 14 Mr. Phillips was very receptive to addressing 15 the situation. And we also talked about a reconfiguration 16 of the race dates to, in effect, start the meet somewhat 17 earlier than what we had planned, thereby closing the gap 18 between the end of the Houston Thoroughbred meet and the 19 beginning of the Manor meet, which was also a concern that 20 was addressed at the last meeting. 21 Subsequent to that -- we realized that we 22 would be limited by purse money. That would be the limiting 23 factor that would determine how much, if any, additional 24 racing we could finance purse-wise. So after we -- after we 25 learned that the cross-species issue was going to be FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 57 1 probably settled and we had an idea how much revenue there 2 was going to be, we got Sammy to do some numbers. 3 I met with Tommy Azopardi of the Texas 4 Horsemen's Partnership and Dave Hooper of the Thoroughbred 5 association and Mr. Phillips and Sammy also. And we reached 6 an agreement whereby Manor makes the request that you have 7 before you. 8 Basically what it does is start the meet two 9 weeks earlier and end the meet two weeks earlier so as to 10 close the gap to three weeks between the Houston meet and 11 the Manor Thoroughbred meet which gives those horsemen a 12 place to move horses if they had no facilities to go to for 13 stabling. 14 It also corresponds with the new opening date 15 of Arlington Park next year. They're going to open the 16 first week of June, thereby when we suffer the exodus of 17 Thoroughbreds from Arlington Park -- to Arlington Park from 18 Lone Star, it leaves an area there that we've traditionally 19 been able to use some horses in the entries that were not 20 previously able to get in at Lone Star or to be competitive 21 at Lone Star. So those two objectives were met. 22 The funds that we had available dictated that 23 probably no more than one extra race day would be logical; 24 so Mr. Phillips asked that we add Monday, Memorial Day, and 25 make a three-day weekend out of that. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 58 1 So that's the proposal that you have before 2 you. I think it's beneficial to Manor Downs and to the 3 horsemen that you heard from at the last meeting. 4 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you, Mr. Burleson. 5 Any questions for Mr. Burleson? 6 Is Mr. Phillips here? 7 MR. PHILLIPS: Yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Did you want to testify? 9 MR. PHILLIPS: Commissioners, I'm Howard 10 Phillips representing Manor Downs and Manor Downs' 11 contribution to making this -- I think it will be the 12 shortest meeting on record since I've been here in 1990. I 13 think the request speaks for itself. 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any questions for 15 Mr. Phillips? 16 Mr. Hooper? 17 Thank you. 18 Did Dave Hooper want to speak? 19 Mr. Johnsen? 20 MR. JOHNSEN: Good morning. I'm Corey 21 Johnsen, the president and general manager of Lone Star Park 22 at Grand Prairie. 23 And I wanted to start by just saying that I 24 believe this industry is moving forward and I think it's 25 because we're communicating and compromising as you said. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 59 1 I've found that we're spending more time on positive things 2 rather than kind of going back and negotiating and spending 3 a lot of negative energy. And I think the Texas Racing 4 Agri-Industry Council is a great step forward. 5 Lone Star Park, for example, we compromised on 6 the breed split, as we knew it would take some money away 7 from our Thoroughbred purse structure; and then the escrowed 8 purse fund, we were the first track to sign that agreement 9 back in August. The negotiations stalled over three or four 10 months. And frankly, I want to make you aware that we will 11 take a different look at that fund in 2003 because we've 12 learned some things in those three or four months. But 13 because we were the first one in and we signed it, we stuck 14 by it rather than take your time today. 15 But when I saw the request from Manor Downs to 16 add a day against Lone Star Park, I decided it was time to 17 come before you and ask you to reconsider adding that date. 18 I have nothing against moving the dates. And 19 that's fine. And I have tremendous respect for Mike 20 Burleson and he's done a great job in maneuvering things. 21 You know, Manor Downs racing against Lone Star 22 Park will hurt us in the number of horses that enter our 23 races. That's a fact. Okay. In the overall good for the 24 industry, we need more developmental racing opportunities. 25 We understand that. We support that. So we did not come FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 60 1 out against Manor Downs running against Lone Star Park. 2 But when you add a day of racing and you add a 3 three-day weekend, that's going to put a strain on the horse 4 population. And when I see a letter in there, in the 5 packet, that says there's full industry support for a 6 measure, nobody has called me, nobody has talked to me, I'm 7 not sure that's right. And I think it's time that -- while 8 I want to move forward and I'm sorry I had to come before 9 you with this, I'd ask you to reconsider and not add the 10 Memorial Day Monday date. 11 And I'd be glad to answer any questions. 12 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Boyd? 13 Mr. Johnsen? 14 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Mr. Johnsen? 15 MR. JOHNSEN: I'm sorry. 16 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Is it that you think the 17 same horses would race there -- 18 MR. JOHNSEN: Absolutely. 19 COMMISSIONER BOYD: -- than at -- 20 MR. JOHNSEN: Absolutely. 21 COMMISSIONER BOYD: You don't think that 22 there's enough space there to -- go ahead. 23 MR. JOHNSEN: Let me give you an example, if I 24 could. This year they had the Manor Downs Futurity and it 25 was run at -- I think it was at Retama. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 61 1 Is that right, Bryan? 2 And you would think, you know, a small 3 futurity, there were trials, there were finals. Well, our 4 entries in our two-year-old maiden races were the slowest 5 they've ever been since we've opened and you have to 6 attribute the fact that there are two-year-olds especially 7 that are going to be running at races at Manor Downs. There 8 is going to be -- say, even a 7,500-dollar claimer, now, if 9 you're stabled at, say, Retama, are you going to drive by 10 Manor Downs to drive up to Lone Star? Maybe not. So rather 11 than have a 10- to 12-horse field, now we're going to have 12 an eight- to 10-horse field. 13 Now, having said that, that's okay. But I 14 would strongly suggest that adding a day, adding a three-day 15 weekend, is not in the best interest of the overall industry 16 in the state. 17 Let me go a step farther. This Quarter Horse 18 meet, we actually had two days in the beginning of our 19 season when we could not make all 11 races. We 20 traditionally schedule them. We were only able to make 10 21 races on our opening Friday and Saturday. Now, is that 22 anybody's fault? Was that a quirk in the schedule? 23 I would tell you that there aren't as many 24 horses out there as some people lead us to believe. And if 25 we start running a number of five-, six-, seven-horse fields FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 62 1 in this state, those races are not interesting to the fan, 2 to the bettor, to the handicapper. There aren't superfectas 3 on the races. There aren't trifectas on the races. A lot 4 of times there's a heavy favorite. I mean, if you hear 5 people talk about some of the problems with California 6 racing, it's the small fields that they have out there. 7 It's not interesting to the handicappers. 8 Now, will one day make a difference? I can't 9 tell you that it's going to make or break Lone Star Park. 10 But I think there comes a time when -- you know, we settled 11 on the number of race dates. We accepted it. But now when 12 we want to add, I don't think it's in the best interest of 13 Lone Star and the entire industry. 14 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: A couple of questions. 15 So this is actually an additional day. I mean, we're 16 swapping weekends. I understand that. But this is also one 17 more day than what we approved last time? 18 MR. JOHNSEN: As I understand it. 19 MR. BURLESON: That's correct. 20 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: And the second question 21 is -- I understand your concern. Where is it that the 22 Monday would compete? Is it just the horses that would come 23 for that weekend? I mean, given three days at Manor, they 24 may come to Manor for that weekend as opposed to going to 25 Lone Star? FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 63 1 MR. JOHNSEN: Yes. And they might run that 2 Monday, for example, rather than run at Lone Star the next 3 Saturday or the next Friday or -- I mean, it's not just, 4 say, that day. But what we found -- let's take our Quarter 5 Horse meet, for example. For the first time ever, Sam 6 Houston raced the weekend before Lone Star opened its 7 Quarter Horse meet. Well, what happened, and naturally so, 8 a lot of those horses ran that closing weekend in Houston 9 and weren't ready to run opening weekend at Lone Star. I 10 mean, there's -- and there weren't enough horses to kind of 11 fill the void. So there becomes a saturation point. 12 And also, I would also mention this. This is 13 our first year to have the Manor Downs Thoroughbred meet run 14 against Lone Star. None of us really know what's going to 15 happen. I mean, you know, you may sit here and, you know, 16 see me in June and say there were full fields at both places 17 and there were horses left over. But I would suggest that 18 we need to take a little bit more conservative approach 19 adding competitive race dates against a Class 1 track than 20 maybe just go ahead and do it until we have a track record. 21 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Does Manor then under 22 the proposal end on May 27th, on Memorial Day? 23 MR. BURLESON: No, sir. Well, that's true. 24 Yeah, that would be the last date. 25 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: And you start when? FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 64 1 MR. JOHNSEN: April 4th. And we run through 2 July 14th. 3 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Wouldn't most of your 4 horses already be stabled there? I mean, you're sort of in 5 the middle of your season. Wouldn't -- 6 MR. JOHNSEN: Yes. Approximately 30 to 40 7 percent of our horses are ship-in horses on the day of the 8 races. 9 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: So your concern is that 10 those 30 or 40 percent may not come in on June 1st or 11 whatever the weekend is of Memorial Day. 12 MR. JOHNSEN: Well, yes. I mean, basically 13 you're going to -- at Manor Downs I would imagine they'd 14 have an eight- to 10-race card. You would hopefully have 80 15 horses run. Those are 80 horses that -- I'm not saying they 16 would all run at Lone Star. But I mean, we already have 17 competition against Lone Star. Why add another day? 18 And I'm very concerned. I'm very concerned 19 about this. I've said it a number of times. But I'm 20 willing -- I mean, obviously we want to do what's best for 21 the industry. We need more racing opportunities, 22 developmental. But I'm very concerned that it could affect 23 us in 2002. 24 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Where do you want those 25 developmental races to happen if they don't happen here? I FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 65 1 don't quite understand that. I mean, if they don't happen 2 at Manor on a 60,000-dollar purse, where will they happen? 3 MR. JOHNSEN: And I don't -- you mean like in 4 the future at Amarillo or -- 5 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: You know, you said you 6 need more -- you're in favor of more developmental races 7 happening. Do they have to happen against -- they're going 8 to be competing against somebody somewhere, are they not? 9 MR. JOHNSEN: Yes, that's correct. So I mean, 10 I don't know how to answer your question other than to say, 11 okay, is it eight -- is it eight racing days or 10 that 12 Manor has? 13 MR. BURLESON: They have 10, asking for 11. 14 MR. JOHNSEN: Yeah. I'm just saying, you 15 know, have them run against somebody else then, I guess, if 16 you want me to finally say that. There comes a time when 17 I've got to stand up and you -- we have not proven that we 18 have enough horses to fill those races. We've had people 19 get up here and say that there are not enough racing 20 opportunities, but where are the horses? 21 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Let me go a step 22 further, just to ask this. You're going to be looking for 23 races in Amarillo where you're going to be managing that; 24 and those race days are going to be basically, if I 25 understand correctly, directly in the middle of the Sam FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 66 1 Houston meet. Are they going to have a basis to say, 2 "Please don't let them run in Amarillo because it's going 3 to be opposing my meet"? 4 MR. JOHNSEN: First of all -- 5 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: I'm not trying to be 6 argumentative. I'm just trying to see where that's supposed 7 to happen. 8 MR. JOHNSEN: Sure. First of all, we would 9 definitely work with the different horse organizations to 10 come up with the right days. I'm not here to tell you today 11 that Amarillo is going to run against Houston or Lone Star 12 or Retama. I mean, I just can't -- I don't have that 13 crystal ball to know. But, yes, there is a chance they 14 could run against another track. 15 But I'm not going to come before the 16 Commission and say, "Well, we want to run 10 days at 17 Amarillo," and then come back and say, "Well, we want to run 18 a few more." I'm not sure that's right and I'm not sure 19 it's right to put a letter in here that says you have full 20 industry support of something when that's not true. I mean, 21 I hate to say it. Enough is enough. 22 COMMISSIONER BOYD: But I think that part of 23 this -- the reason they got together was because we had the 24 representation from the horse owners in our last meeting 25 that were asking for more opportunities and closer to. So, FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 67 1 you know, I applaud the fact that Mr. Burleson and 2 Mr. Phillips got together and tried to remedy that. For 3 one, it sends a message that, you know, we do hear those 4 folks that show up at the meeting that do air, you know, 5 another side to a situation that we don't ordinarily hear. 6 So I appreciate the fact that they worked and listened to 7 those folks and came up with the resolve that -- you know, 8 that sends a good message in my opinion. 9 And I think that we make a good point. In the 10 future, when you come to us from an Amarillo perspective and 11 ask for those race dates, there's always going to be a 12 conflict, there's always going to be an overlap, especially 13 when you add one more track to the mix in my opinion. 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Garza? 15 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: I guess this is for 16 staff. If I understand it, the condition book hasn't gone 17 out yet for this meet, right? I mean, we're still changing 18 the dates on it. If we did not approve that Memorial Day, 19 is that a kind of day that you could add, assuming we're 20 going to meet -- I don't know what our meeting schedule 21 would be in April or May. But is that something that you 22 could add close to the race? I mean, you're talking about 23 horses that would be finishing their meet there, so you 24 would be adding on an additional day. 25 I'm just wondering if Mr. Johnsen is correct, FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 68 1 since this will be the first time we have this happening, 2 the possibility of not approving that extra day now but 3 waiting until we get much closer to the actual event and see 4 what kind of numbers of horses we have at both places. I 5 know it's a possibility. Is it feasible possibility, I 6 guess, is the correct question. 7 MR. BURLESON: I guess you could ask 8 Mr. Phillips that question. But in my opinion, in this 9 sophisticated age of planning and marketing, I would think 10 this is a decision that you probably should make today. 11 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Mr. Burleson, did you think 12 that this had full industry support? 13 MR. BURLESON: The industry support, I think, 14 that Mr. Phillips referred to in his letter was the support 15 of the Thoroughbred organizations, being the Texas 16 Horsemen's Partnership and the Texas Thoroughbred 17 Association that were actually involved in the 18 negotiations. I don't -- I don't think he meant to -- I 19 don't think he meant to imply that all the associations had 20 come together and agreed on that. What we got was a 21 consensus of everybody that was at the table; and Corey is 22 correct, he was not at the table. But -- 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I really want us to be 24 careful -- 25 MR. BURLESON: I think -- the organization FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 69 1 that had the members that were concerned that were here at 2 the meeting last time were represented and as was the Texas 3 Thoroughbred Association, and I think that's what he was 4 speaking of. 5 CHAIRPERSON LACY: And I want us to be careful 6 about how we describe support so that we're accurate in who 7 has supported something because, as you can tell, the 8 Commission is very, very pleased to see the spirit of 9 cooperation that we have going right now; and I think if 10 groups are represented as having supported something which 11 they, in fact, did not support, we may start to lose some 12 trust among our group. So I think we should be very careful 13 when we state that we have support about something. 14 MS. McHUGH: Madam Chairman? 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes, Commissioner McHugh. 16 MS. McHUGH: Well, aren't the tracks an 17 interested party that should be at the table in a discussion 18 like this? Mr. Burleson, I'm asking you that question. 19 MR. BURLESON: Actually the discussion as -- 20 well, maybe so. The short answer to that is maybe. We did 21 not contact anybody because, frankly, we didn't foresee any 22 opposition. And maybe that's a mistake on my part. 23 MR. JOHNSEN: If I could, I'd just like to 24 just wrap up with a couple of things. I've found -- my 25 experience tells me that you are going to have horsemen who FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 70 1 are going to come before this Commission and want more 2 racing opportunities for their particular breed, quality of 3 horse, or whatever. If there's a given in horse racing, 4 that is it. And you're going to continue to get that. And 5 this Commission is a great Commission because you do care, 6 you do listen. 7 But on the other hand, there's a 8 responsibility to make sure that we continue and that we -- 9 that our -- that all our tracks that are existing maximize 10 the potential in handle and purses. So that's kind of the 11 first part. 12 The second part is that this Commission has 13 been very fair, but I'm just not sure it's right to add a 14 day to a track's schedule that's been there for five years 15 and not ask them. I'll guarantee you this. When Amarillo 16 has race dates, we're going to talk to the other tracks. 17 We're going to talk to all the horsemen. And that's what's 18 wrong about this deal. Plus this is uncharted water. We 19 don't know what's going to happen with these 10 days. 20 And I think that's a very good answer to those 21 nice ladies that came up here is that, okay, if it goes good 22 this year, we can maybe give you some more days next year. 23 But we don't want to jeopardize -- because it's not just 24 Lone Star. What if Manor Downs has a hard time filling 25 races? We don't know. They might have six-horse fields FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 71 1 some weekend. 2 But if we keeping adding these race days -- 3 another thing is you had the Texas Quarter Horse Association 4 get up here and ask for 40 race dates at all their Class 1 5 tracks. Okay? Remember the conversation? We weren't able 6 to fill our cards for -- I mean, we got 10 races on opening 7 Friday and opening Saturday of our meet. I mean, that is 8 very consistent. And I don't blame them for asking for 9 more. But we've got to have the horses out there or this 10 whole thing that's very successful now is going to take a 11 dip in the wrong direction. 12 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Mr. Garza? 13 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: The feasible possibility 14 I was asking about, I mean, do you foresee -- if we didn't 15 grant this date today, do you foresee a time in April or 16 early May of 2002 where you may have enough information that 17 you might not be opposed to granting that additional day? 18 And add to that the fact that we have all these folks that 19 say they need additional racing dates. 20 I suspect, other than maybe being able to put 21 a lot of marketing out, that the horse people, if there's 22 plenty of horses at both tracks, would stay the extra day 23 and not ship out on a Sunday. So I think there will be 24 enough people that can be notified to come back on Monday, 25 Memorial Day, for the show, you know, for the racing, if FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 72 1 things are going well at that time, and the horsemen aren't 2 going to pick up on Sunday night and haul off their horses 3 on the Monday, Memorial Day. But we either have to address 4 this issue now or possibly address it in April or May. 5 Do you foresee the possibility of having 6 enough figures crunched out that you could say maybe, if we 7 met in late April or early May, we, Lone Star, do not have 8 an objection to adding that date at this time? 9 MR. JOHNSEN: I believe so. I think if you 10 were a few weekends in, entries were very strong at Lone 11 Star, they were very strong at Manor, I think you could 12 possibly make that -- we'd be open to that, just like we 13 would in 2003 adding some race dates. 14 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Mr. Johnsen, how early do 15 you start advertising a race like that? 16 MR. JOHNSEN: At Lone Star? 17 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Uh-huh. 18 MR. JOHNSEN: Our condition book will be out 19 in two or three weeks. So I mean, we -- now, not -- it's 20 not just promoting one day but, you know, that we're racing 21 from April 4th to July 14th. Now, that condition book will 22 come out -- we have about five condition books for our 23 Thoroughbred meeting, and that one probably is published -- 24 how they break, I'm not really sure -- but around the first 25 of May, end of April, is when I think we put that book out. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 73 1 COMMISSIONER BOYD: So if we waited, that 2 would still give both places time to put all that 3 information in the condition book and prepare for that race 4 in the media and with the horsemen? 5 MR. JOHNSEN: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. 6 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rogers? 7 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: The problem I see with 8 waiting to make the decision is what happens with the purse 9 structure at Manor during this time? How do they 10 determine -- I mean, they can't just add a day and say, 11 okay, we've got another $80,000 or $50,000 or whatever the 12 purse is going to be on that particular day because they've 13 already allocated their purses based on how many days 14 they're going to run. So that's the problem I see. 15 It looks to me like whether we approve them or 16 don't approve them, we really ought to do that now or -- I 17 think there's a problem in that. I may be wrong in that 18 thinking. Is that -- am I anywhere on target here, 19 Mr. Jackson? 20 MR. JACKSON: Yes, sir. 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you, Mr. Jackson. 22 Commissioner Schulze? 23 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I agree with 24 Commissioner Rogers. I think the decision needs to be made 25 today. We've talked about condition books. And once the -- FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 74 1 once the dates are set and if the racing secretaries from 2 Manor and from Lone Star will communicate with one another, 3 you know, the racing can be structured on that day such that 4 hopefully Lone Star doesn't have the problem filling their 5 fields. 6 I think, Mr. Johnsen, if I heard you 7 correctly, you're primarily concerned about the two-year-old 8 races. That's where you've had your problems. 9 MR. JOHNSEN: No. That was just an example. 10 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: That was just an 11 example, okay. 12 MR. JOHNSEN: That was a fact that happened 13 this year. Now we're adding many more races. It's going to 14 be a problem. 15 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: You know, I don't know 16 whether it will be a problem or not. I think what we have 17 to decide is to just to try to foresee into the future here 18 a bit and decide whether we're going to approve the extra 19 day for Manor and listen to the folks who have said they 20 need more opportunities or whether we're going to take the 21 more conservative approach that Mr. Johnsen has outlined 22 and, you know, protect Lone Star's population of horses, if 23 you will. 24 I'm kind of like Mr. Burleson. I don't think 25 that I foresaw the problem. I respect your opinion and I FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 75 1 know you're doing your job and your job is to be the general 2 manager of Lone Star Park and that's why you're here and I 3 appreciate that. But I, for one, am not sure that the 4 problem will exist. I would be in favor of granting the day 5 myself. 6 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Mr. Jackson? I'm sorry. 7 MR. JACKSON: I'd like to give you some 8 statistics that may help you. It may not. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Can you speak up just a 10 bit? 11 MR. JACKSON: Sure. I'd like to give the 12 Commission a few little statistics that, in working out this 13 deal about the extra day, that came to some realization on 14 Manor Downs' part that they had to accept. 15 Part of this plan is not only -- it's just not 16 adding an additional day but it's moving their meet back. 17 And because of that, that's two weeks less purse money that 18 they have accrued from simulcasting to spend during that 19 meet. Additionally, that's two weeks less escrowed horse 20 purse money that they will be getting to spend during that 21 meet that we approved earlier in this meeting. All that 22 results in to their purses not being $60,000 a day for their 23 Thoroughbred meet; and adding an additional day to it, it 24 brings them down to about $54,000 a day. 25 If you approve this without the additional FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 76 1 date, their purses will go back up over $60,000 a day. If 2 they stay with what has been approved to them already, which 3 is running into June, their purses will be above $60,000 a 4 day. Manor Downs made the decision to let their purses fall 5 below that amount by adding that additional day. 6 So I just wanted to let you all know this 7 based on what you're discussing. If you drop a day off 8 what's requested, the purse levels are going to go back up. 9 Corey may have a concern about competing with higher dollar 10 purses as well during that time frame. And if you shift it 11 back -- if you let it stay what has already been approved 12 and we don't change anything, then they're still going to be 13 above $60,000 a day running in a different time period into 14 June. 15 That's when you start shifting dollars around 16 and that's what you're doing when you add and reduce dates. 17 You're shifting money as well. So I just thought I would 18 give you that information. 19 CHAIRPERSON LACY: So, Mr. Jackson, you're 20 saying that if we don't add the May 27th date, the purses go 21 back up to 60. 22 MR. JACKSON: Yes. 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rogers? 24 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Is that even if they -- 25 I mean, I had understood that part of the reason to move FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 77 1 this from June to May was that there would be a stronger 2 competition for horses during the June date because 3 Arlington was also going to be open so you're going to have 4 some pretty serious field problems there if what you're 5 predicting is reality. 6 So is it -- is it worse to have one extra day 7 in there or is it worse to have them competing on the first 8 week that Arlington is open and at the same time that you're 9 losing some horses to Arlington? It looks to me like having 10 the extra day is a better deal than -- I mean, for you, it 11 looks like the best deal would be to move it forward and 12 don't have the extra day; but we've already approved having 13 the days later. It just would appear to me that having the 14 extra day would be less -- and lower purses, would be less 15 competition than having those competing at a later date and 16 also having higher purses. But I may not be analyzing that 17 correctly. Could you address that? 18 MR. JOHNSEN: Yes. I'm more concerned about 19 the additional racing opportunities at Manor than a slight 20 shift in the purse structure. 21 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Or the date structure 22 either? I mean, where they are right now is they're not 23 approved for that -- for the Memorial Day weekend. They're 24 approved for the last week in June or for that week that 25 Arlington opens in June. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 78 1 MR. JOHNSEN: I guess if I understand your 2 question right, I'd rather have it the way we approved it at 3 the last Commission meeting, the way that we set up our 4 dates request in June. I'd rather have that than get an 5 additional day. I just don't think it's right to go through 6 the dates request process and then come back and add stuff 7 and change stuff around. I'd rather have status quo, what 8 we all sat around here and said this is in the best interest 9 of the industry, because we're just going to keep coming 10 back and addressing these issues. The race date concerns me 11 more, definitely. 12 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: I agree with that, 13 no matter which track it is. We've already set the dates. 14 We shouldn't be changing them. 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Ms. Flowerday wanted to say 16 something. 17 MS. FLOWERDAY: Commissioners, I just want to 18 make sure that the blame is being laid where it belongs. 19 And that's in my lap. After the last meeting I asked 20 Mr. Burleson to set up a meeting with Manor to see if there 21 wasn't something that could be done to address the concerns 22 of those horse owners who made such passionate pleas to 23 you. It's not Manor's fault, so please don't blame them. 24 CHAIRPERSON LACY: And I asked you to do 25 that. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 79 1 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Overlapping dates 2 just kill racetracks. It happens all over the country. 3 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Let me see if I 4 understand. You can live with the switching the weekends to 5 April and May even though that would be a change in what we 6 approved last time. You can -- 7 MR. JOHNSEN: I would prefer that the dates 8 stay the same because I'm not that -- I'm not as worried 9 about Manor running those weekends in June because the 10 horses really start leaving for Arlington about mid June, 11 right in there. So I'm okay there. But I don't mind 12 approving it because I think what I heard Mike say was it's 13 in the best interest of the industry to give those horses a 14 place to run, it sounded like, in April because when Houston 15 was over at a certain time and they needed a spot to run. 16 So I'm trying to compromise and get along. But I'd rather 17 have it the way we said we would do it than add a day. 18 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Mr. Rutherford, if I 19 may -- I'm sorry. Were you through? I didn't mean to butt 20 in. 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Let me ask a question real 22 quick. Okay. Are you saying that you're comfortable with 23 the changes to the April 27th and May 4th weekend? Your 24 problem is with the May 27th date? 25 MR. JOHNSEN: Is adding the race date, that's FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 80 1 correct. But if I had a choice, just keep it the same. 2 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I understand. 3 Commissioner Schulze, I'm sorry. 4 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I've long been an 5 advocate for some overlap of race days and probably at times 6 I will say that I was wrong because I think that there is a 7 hard time filling fields when the class of racing is close 8 together. But I've been hearing for years and years from 9 horsemen who cannot run their horses at Lone Star that they 10 need some opportunities. 11 And I have a tremendous amount of respect for 12 the Lone Star management group and for Mr. Johnsen, but I 13 think these horsemen need some opportunities to run at this 14 50- to 60-thousand-dollar purse structure. Lone Star's 15 purses are going to be much greater than that. And I just 16 feel in my heart that if the racing secretaries will get 17 together and communicate and write races for that day or for 18 that Sunday and Monday that are not -- that don't compete so 19 much for the same type of horse, I think it can be done. 20 And that's just my opinion. But I felt like 21 I -- I know what you're saying. Overlapping is hard. It's 22 very hard. But in a huge state like Texas geographically 23 and a lot of diversity amongst our horse population, I think 24 it can work. And so -- 25 MR. JOHNSEN: Commissioner Schulze, could I FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 81 1 interject real quick? 2 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Sure. 3 MR. JOHNSEN: Ideally you're correct. But let 4 me tell you what happened during our Quarter Horse season. 5 Our Quarter Horse book was out many months in advance. The 6 racing secretary at Sam Houston Park had our Quarter Horse 7 book. Okay? He still wrote races his closing weekend that 8 overlapped with the races we were running. That happened. 9 Now, I don't blame him for doing that. That's 10 his job. But what I'm saying is when you don't have enough 11 horses, everybody has got to look out for themselves. And 12 ideally, yes, we can work together; but it doesn't always 13 happen that way. And we were two races short. And how much 14 money did it cost the State of Texas by not only having two 15 fewer races than were scheduled but having a lot of five-, 16 six-, seven-horse fields where we couldn't run a trifecta, 17 couldn't run a superfecta? 18 We started off -- we all know there are a lot 19 of circumstances in our meeting. We started very slow. The 20 last third of our Quarter Horse meeting, when the entries 21 got up to speed, we were up over 10 percent; but we couldn't 22 catch up because we were so far behind early. Obviously 23 there were other things; but we looked at it and it was the 24 number of horses in those races the first two weekends we 25 believe impacted us greatly because when you can't run FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 82 1 trifectas and superfectas because you don't have enough 2 horses in the races, it hurts your handle, especially out of 3 state. 4 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Dr. Schulze? 5 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: I agree with 7 everything you say, but I still don't think we have to 8 overlap. I mean, we need more places for all of our horses 9 to run. I agree with that a hundred percent. That's why we 10 have racing. And -- but I think we can -- we had our time. 11 We passed the days. And it's not fair to -- whether it's 12 Lone Star or any track, to have to go change their 13 advertising, change everything, when someone -- one person, 14 when it's conflicted. If it's not conflicted, it would be 15 different. 16 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: I understand your 17 point. I understand. 18 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: And I'm for more 19 racing. That's why I'm here. 20 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Garza? 21 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: Can someone on behalf of 22 Manor Downs tell me, if we switch the day -- or the two 23 weekends but didn't grant you Monday, May 27th, which would 24 you prefer having, the April and May or the June dates? 25 Stay like we are right now or switch but exclude Memorial FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 83 1 Day? 2 MR. PHILLIPS: Probably stay like we are now. 3 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: I'll make -- if a motion 4 is in order, I'll make a motion. 5 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Mr. Hooper, did you want to 6 speak? 7 MR. HOOPER: Yes. I've reconsidered, Madam 8 Chairman. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Let's get him up and 10 then -- okay. 11 Thank you, Mr. Johnsen. 12 MR. HOOPER: And I think Mr. Azopardi probably 13 wants to have a word at some point, too. 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: He has indicated. 15 MR. HOOPER: Madam Chair, members of the 16 Commission, I'm David Hooper, the executive director of the 17 Texas Thoroughbred Association. 18 And I guess this must be a new day. I never 19 thought I'd come to the podium to speak on behalf of Manor 20 Downs and against Lone Star Park. But if ever I've heard a 21 red herring, this morning I've heard a red herring and I 22 think you have, too. 23 I mean, to say that competition on Memorial 24 Day, Lone Star Million Day, against Manor Downs is going to 25 hurt Lone Star Park, why do you think Lone Star calls it FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 84 1 Million Day? It's because there's a million dollars in 2 purses that day. There's not going to be any competition 3 for horses that day between Manor Downs and Lone Star Park. 4 Manor will be running for $55,000. 5 It will provide at least an extra day for 6 racing some of the lesser horses. And where -- the benefit 7 of closing Manor on Memorial Day weekend is that those 8 horses are then available the following week, 10 days, two 9 weeks, three weeks, to help increase the size of the fields 10 at Lone Star Park after Lone Star has lost some of its 11 horses to Arlington Park. And that's when those people with 12 the lesser horses are going to have a chance to run up at 13 Lone Star Park. 14 It's a much more equitable schedule than you 15 approved the last time. And you know I went through a long 16 song and dance up here about Manor Downs is going to be the 17 only Thoroughbred track in the country that wouldn't be 18 running on Derby Day. The revised dates say they open a 19 weekend before Kentucky Derby weekend and will run on Derby 20 Day. And I think it will increase their handle 21 significantly by running both the weekend before and 22 certainly on Derby weekend which therefore is going to be 23 more money generated for the purse account and certainly be 24 able to sustain purses at about at least a 55,000-dollar 25 level, if not a 60,000-dollar level. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 85 1 I can give you one bit of good news on the 2 fact that we went back in and took a look to see what kind 3 of ATB money we might have available and it turns out that 4 we've got $62,000 in ATB money available at Manor Downs. 5 And Manor had already scheduled a 25,000-dollar Manor Downs 6 Sprint. We talked to Mr. Phillips about raising that to 30 7 because the graded stakes committee just -- or the graded 8 stakes -- the cataloging standards for next year only give 9 black type to races at $30,000 in value and up, added value 10 and up. So we got Mr. Phillips to agree to make that a 11 30,000-dollar ATB Manor Downs Sprint Championship. And the 12 other 30,000, we've created an opening day feature on April 13 27th, if that turns out to be the opening day under a 14 revised stakes schedule, of a 30,000-dollar Manor Downs 15 Distaff Handicap. 16 Incidentally, both of those ATB stakes will 17 lead nicely and serve as good preps for a couple of major 18 Texas-bred stakes that are run a few weeks down the line at 19 Lone Star Park. So the schedule fits well there. 20 It fits well in another way, too, if you will 21 revise the dates as Mr. Phillips has requested; and that is, 22 it puts the Manor Downs Futurity trials on opening day 23 weekend, on April 27th, with the finals two weeks later, and 24 then there is about a two-week gap when we have the trials 25 for the Texas sales futurity, the TTA sales futurity, at FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 86 1 Lone Star Park, with the finals then coming up on Belmont 2 weekend. 3 Now, as for two-year-olds not filling races 4 well at Lone Star last year, I don't anticipate that's going 5 to be as much of a problem for the Lone Star racing 6 secretary's staff and Lone Star this next year. As you 7 probably have seen in some of the trade publications and 8 also some of the announcements that we've made in 9 conjunction with the tracks, we've revisited our Texas 10 stallion stakes and we have created a million-dollar series 11 of four races. 12 The first one of those is going to be run at 13 Lone Star Park on June 29th and it's a 350,000-dollar race 14 for two-year-olds divided into two divisions, with the 12 15 highest money earners going in the first race and the next 16 12 highest money earners going in the second race. Both 17 races are divided by sex. That means that colts and fillies 18 will in the first -- in the richest races will run for about 19 $152,000 each and the next 12 money earners in each of those 20 divisions will run for about $52,000. 21 Now, in order to get -- have preference in 22 those races, you've got to have earnings because the 23 conditions of the race are highest earnings preferred. So 24 that means horsemen are going to have to get their -- who 25 want to shoot for that big pot are going to have to get FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 87 1 their horses out and try and get some earnings so they've 2 got preference to run in that first big Texas stallion 3 stakes race. 4 You know, in the last several months, maybe it 5 goes on into a year or two, why, I think you've bent over 6 backwards in trying to accommodate Manor Downs and try and 7 see that they increased the size of their track and made it 8 a safe facility and provide racing opportunities for 9 Thoroughbreds. I think there's if anything further that you 10 need to do, it's be firm on their dates. And once you 11 decide today, don't change them anymore. Don't go back and 12 add a day sometime later on. Either it's going to be 10 13 days, from April 27th through the Sunday of Memorial Day 14 weekend, or it's going to be 10 days as you originally 15 allocated or it's going to be 11 days starting April 27th 16 and finishing on Memorial Day. 17 But make it firm. Allow them to send out 18 their condition book with either 10 or 11 days and the dates 19 they're going to be run and just put an end to it from 20 there. 21 Those, I think, are all the thoughts that I 22 had as I listened to Mr. Johnsen make his plea. I did jot 23 these numbers down, trying to draw from some kind of 24 recollection. I believe that Retama ran about 44 races for 25 Thoroughbreds last year on those four special Thoroughbred FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 88 1 days during a time when they were running mostly Quarter 2 Horses. I think they ran about 90 races for Thoroughbreds 3 the year before. Manor plans a 10-day -- or a 10-race 4 program. For 10 days, that's a hundred races. For 11 days, 5 that's 110 races. That's roughly the kind of competition 6 that has existed for Thoroughbreds during the Lone Star meet 7 in the past. And I think it was 90 days in nineteen 8 ninety -- or 90 races in 1999 as well. 9 I think I've run out of my notes, so I'd be 10 happy to answer any questions. 11 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any questions for 12 Mr. Hooper? 13 Thank you. 14 Mr. Azopardi? 15 MS. McHUGH: Before Mr. Azopardi speaks, I 16 wonder whether Mr. Johnsen has a response. 17 MR. JOHNSEN: I can go through the whole 18 thing, but especially the one that popped out was the 19 two-year-olds. I don't think he can -- I disagree with his 20 assertion that we won't have a problem making our 21 two-year-old races. 22 MS. McHUGH: What about that million-dollar 23 day? 24 MR. JOHNSEN: It's not -- it's -- honestly, 25 it's not about May 27th, meaning that I'm concerned about FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 89 1 the extra day. And I'm concerned about a three-day weekend 2 because I know that takes a drain on your horse population. 3 When you're used to running two days a week and now you go 4 to three, there will be a drain on that horse population 5 down there in kind of all of ours. But it's about a horse 6 running in a race and then not being able to come back in 7 three weeks or whatever after that race. 8 So I can't -- I don't want to just point to 9 that one day and tell you that it's going to hurt us on Lone 10 Star Million Day. It's the overall addition. And he said 11 it. You're talking about adding, you know, 60 races or 12 whatever, 50 some races from last year. That's a lot. It's 13 not like -- well, enough said on that. 14 Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you, Mr. Johnsen. 16 Mr. Azopardi? 17 MR. AZOPARDI: Good morning, Commissioners. 18 My name is Tommy Azopardi. I'm the executive director of 19 the Texas Horsemen's Partnership. 20 I'll state that I hate following Dave Hooper 21 because he's so eloquent at the podium and he made a lot of 22 points that I won't take your time to reiterate here. But I 23 did want you all to know a couple of things that concerned 24 the Texas Horsemen's Partnership when Ms. Flowerday and 25 Mr. Burleson contacted us about exploring opportunities, FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 90 1 adding additional opportunities at Manor Downs for the group 2 of people that you all heard at your last Commission 3 meeting. We were very receptive to that idea and that 4 invitation to work on that. 5 We had two meetings with those individuals 6 that you saw up here before you at the last Commission 7 meeting, as well as others, to talk about their needs and 8 concerns. We take those very seriously in our job of 9 representing the horsemen. 10 I do want to state that I feel, as Mr. Hooper 11 pointed out, that the overlap between Lone Star Park with 12 both Arlington and Louisiana Downs is much more of a concern 13 to us from a horse population standpoint, from an inventory 14 of available horses, than that one additional day being 15 added to a time period when Lone Star typically averages 16 very high numbers in their entry boxes. 17 And also what that does by moving -- what it 18 does by moving Manor's races earlier in the year, it allows 19 those horsemen that you heard at the last meeting 20 opportunities at a time of the year when it is very hard to 21 get in at Lone Star and it shortens that gap between the Sam 22 Houston meet and the Manor meet, allows them to run 23 basically a seamless operation there. 24 And at the end of the Manor meet, a lot of 25 those horses are still not going to go to Lone Star. They FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 91 1 cannot compete at Lone Star. And quite frankly, those 2 horses that might contribute to the fuller fields at Lone 3 Star will not really help the handle. Those type of horses 4 are the horses that will go off the board at 99 to one and 5 have maybe $800 in handle on them. 6 So I don't really think that that's going to 7 deter from the overall success of the Lone Star meet and it 8 will allow those owners of those horses that cannot compete 9 at Lone Star Park then a gap at the end of the Manor meet to 10 rest their horses up and get ready for the Retama Park 11 meet. 12 And I think that the plan that Mr. Burleson 13 worked on presenting with you all today in conjunction with 14 Howard Phillips is a nice, logical, orderly progression that 15 addresses a lot of those horsemen that oftentimes are not 16 heard and that have those horses that just don't compete at 17 Lone Star Park. 18 And I would urge you all to adopt Howard's 19 request. I know that there was a lot of give and take on 20 Howard's part. I think you heard Howard say while ago, you 21 know, all things being equal, he'll just stay where he is 22 but he will not have met the challenge of the horsemen that 23 you heard at the last meeting. 24 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I want to make it very 25 clear to my fellow Commissioners that I did ask FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 92 1 Ms. Flowerday to try to assist the horse owners who were 2 here and spoke to us at our last meeting. 3 Commissioner Garza? 4 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: What about Sammy's 5 comment on purses? One day it's we need more opportunities 6 and the next day we need higher purses. If we add that 7 extra day, it is going to lower purses, right? 8 MR. AZOPARDI: Yes, it will. And as I think I 9 said during that last meeting when we were talking about 10 purses versus racing opportunities, we do have a very 11 distinct set of constituencies within our membership. We 12 have those members that need more opportunities at a lower 13 purse level than the other set of our members that need the 14 purses that Lone Star Park pays out. And I think this is a 15 nice compromise balance where we're offering opportunities 16 to both for the first time in a long time. 17 MS. McHUGH: Madam Chair? 18 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner? 19 MS. McHUGH: Mr. Azopardi, I think you know my 20 commitment to the horse owners and I've been supportive of 21 that. What concerns me about this -- and I know that it 22 wasn't purposeful -- is that there was somebody who should 23 have been included in these discussions who was not at the 24 table when the deal was made. Now, there might have been a 25 different deal made where there were additional FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 93 1 opportunities for racing in Texas; but the fact of it is -- 2 and I think our Chairwoman has very precisely pointed out a 3 very important development that I've seen since I've been on 4 the Commission, and that is that sense the collegiality and 5 compromise among all the parties. 6 So I don't intend to vote for this extra day 7 simply because I think that the -- I think that the 8 agreement should have been made differently with Lone Star 9 at the table. And if it had been a different track, I would 10 have said the same thing. 11 MR. AZOPARDI: Ms. McHugh, I would agree. I 12 think the process in this case was flawed. That's probably 13 as much my fault as it is anybody's. And I made apologies 14 to Mr. Johnsen out in the hall prior to the meeting. It's 15 one of those assumptions that we made where we thought we 16 were probably acting in the best interest of Lone Star and 17 worried about that gap with Louisiana Downs and Arlington 18 which has been a concern for Lone Star in the past. But I 19 do acknowledge that what you say is true. The process was 20 flawed. And I think there's culpability to go around. 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you for those 22 comments. 23 Anyone else wishing to testify? 24 Commissioners, any questions for anyone? 25 I'd entertain a motion. FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 94 1 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Madam Chairperson, I'd 2 like to make a motion that we accept staff's proposal on the 3 race dates for Manor Downs as cited in this document. 4 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Boyd has made 5 a motion to approve the request by Manor Downs for a change 6 in their live race dates for the year 2002 as reflected in 7 their letter dated November 20th. 8 Is there a second? 9 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Second. 10 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Schulze has 11 seconded. 12 MS. McHUGH: Madam Chairman, would you clarify 13 exactly what that means? 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Boyd, with 15 your permission, the dates Saturday, June 1, and Sunday, 16 June 2nd, and Saturday, June 8th, and Sunday, June 9th, 17 would be deleted from the current Manor Downs Thoroughbred 18 race days. The following days would be added: Saturday, 19 April 27th; Sunday, April 28th; Saturday, May 4th; Sunday, 20 May 5th; and Monday, May 27th. 21 Is that correct, Commissioner Boyd? 22 COMMISSIONER BOYD: That's correct. 23 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any discussion? 24 Ms. Giberson, let's call the roll. 25 MS. GIBERSON: Ms. Boyd? FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 95 1 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Aye. 2 MS. GIBERSON: Mr. Garza? 3 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: No. 4 MS. GIBERSON: Ms. McHugh? 5 MS. McHUGH: No. 6 MS. GIBERSON: Mr. Rogers? 7 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Aye. 8 MS. GIBERSON: Mr. Rutherford? 9 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: No. 10 MS. GIBERSON: Mr. Archer? 11 MR. ARCHER: No. 12 MS. GIBERSON: Dr. Schulze? 13 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: Aye. 14 MS. GIBERSON: Ms. Lacy? 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Aye. 16 Ms. Giberson, could you give me a count? 17 MS. GIBERSON: Four to four. 18 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Ms. Flowerday? 19 MS. FLOWERDAY: Well, that motion failed. And 20 I suppose -- 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: So we just go back to -- 22 MS. FLOWERDAY: It's the Chair's call if you 23 want to entertain any more motions. 24 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I do because I do think 25 that we should -- I think a lot of people have worked hard FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 96 1 to try to work something out here and I think we owe it to 2 both of the racetracks involved to try to work something out 3 today. 4 Any discussion before we try another motion? 5 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Why not let all the 6 horsemen's groups and Lone Star to get together and see if 7 they can work out something. 8 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Well, I would like to work 9 out something today; and I think if they were going to try 10 to work something out, they probably would have done that 11 before the meeting. 12 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: I don't think Lone 13 Star had a chance. 14 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Mr. Johnsen, would you like 15 a short break? 16 MR. JOHNSEN: Sure. 17 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. We'll take a 18 five-minute break. And I'm serious about that. Okay? 19 Thank you. The meeting will reconvene at 12:10 -- 12:15. 20 (Recess from 12:13 p.m. to 12:18 p.m.) 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: The meeting is reconvened 22 at approximately 12:15. 23 Mr. Azopardi? 24 MR. AZOPARDI: Commissioner Lacy, we got 25 together as you had asked us to do. And the compromise that FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 97 1 Mr. Johnsen at Lone Star Park and Mr. Phillips at Manor 2 Downs and the horsemen, both myself and Dave of the Texas 3 Thoroughbred Association, agree that at this point the best 4 option available to us would be to retain 10 days of racing 5 at Manor Downs but to change the schedule and move those 10 6 days as Mr. Phillips has requested in his letter to you so 7 that it would eliminate some of the competition with 8 Louisiana Downs, Arlington Park, and give our horsemen an 9 opportunity to run at a time of year that would better 10 benefit them. 11 CHAIRPERSON LACY: So, Mr. Azopardi, what have 12 you all -- which days have you agreed on? 13 MR. AZOPARDI: Ms. Lacy, it would be to delete 14 Saturday, June the 1st, and Sunday, June the 2nd, delete 15 Saturday, June the 8th, and Sunday, June the 9th, and to add 16 Saturday, April 27th, and Sunday, April 28th, to add 17 Saturday, May 4th, and Sunday, May 5th. 18 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. So Monday, May 27th, 19 would be deleted. 20 MR. AZOPARDI: That is what was agreed to. 21 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. Thank you, 22 Mr. Azopardi. And thank you all for working together on 23 this. We really appreciate that. 24 I would entertain a motion to approve the 25 amended request by Manor Downs for a change in live race FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 98 1 dates for year 2002 which would eliminate June 1st, June 2 2nd, June 8th, and June 9th and add April 27th, April 28th, 3 May 4th, and May 5th. 4 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Madam Chair? 5 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER BOYD: May I make that motion? 7 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Sure. Ms. Boyd has made 8 that motion. 9 Do I hear a second? 10 COMMISSIONER RUTHERFORD: Second. 11 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Rutherford has 12 seconded that motion. 13 All those in favor signify by saying aye. 14 COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 15 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any opposed? 16 The motion passes unanimously. 17 Thank you all very much. 18 Ms. Flowerday, if you'd give us a report on 19 racetrack inspections. 20 MS. FLOWERDAY: Commissioners, the inspection 21 form is behind Tab 12 in your notebooks. There are still 22 some pending inspection items relating to Manor that we 23 expect will be resolved before they begin live racing in the 24 spring. 25 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Any questions for FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 99 1 Ms. Flowerday? 2 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Madam Chair? 3 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Commissioner Boyd? 4 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Do we foresee any 5 problems? Is everything kind of going on schedule? Or are 6 these areas of major concern? 7 MS. FLOWERDAY: Most of these are things that 8 they had to have resolved last summer before -- they are 9 related to the track completion, which got completed in the 10 summer before you granted live race dates. So, no, I don't 11 think there's anything -- I think everything is really 12 resolved. It's just we haven't done the follow-up 13 inspection because we will wait and do it when we're ready 14 to inspect again. 15 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Okay. Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Do we need an executive 17 session? 18 Any old business? 19 We'll move on to new business. I have a 20 request from Mr. Smith. 21 Mr. Smith, if you could identify yourself. I 22 am aware that you are concerned that Ms. Flowerday made some 23 comments in an Internet article, an AQHA Internet article, 24 and that you are concerned that she made those comments. I 25 think that you are asking to talk about a contested matter FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 100 1 and all of the parties to that matter would not be here, so 2 I am very hesitant -- in fact, if you are coming up to talk 3 about the contested matter, I'm not going to let you do 4 that. 5 MR. SMITH: I'm not. 6 CHAIRPERSON LACY: If you have some reason 7 that you want to talk to us about Ms. Flowerday, I'm going 8 to give you three minutes. 9 MR. SMITH: That's good. 10 Madam Chairman, board, my name is Thomas 11 Smith. I own a couple of Quarter Horses. I run under B&B 12 Joint Ventures. And I'm here because I tried to make an 13 appointment with Mr. Burleson. We had an appointment for a 14 Friday. He said we had to cancel it. He called back and we 15 had to cancel the appointment. We couldn't have the 16 discussion. And then he said that we'd have it the next 17 week. And two weeks later I have yet to hear from him. 18 But then on the Internet article on the 29th, 19 I read how Mrs. Flowerday can make plenty of comments and 20 quotes to the media about my trainer, my horse, horses. I 21 mean, it's up to her what she wants to say. The individual 22 that wrote the article is right here also. 23 But the problem is that I have a trainer. 24 She's had a license in this state for many years. She is a 25 horse trainer. She's not a nobody. And I have a real FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 101 1 problem when you say that. The lady has run horses all year 2 long. She's done an excellent job of racing horses. And 3 until she has a day in court or a date in front of this 4 hearing, the comments should not be put out by 5 Ms. Flowerday. 6 I think Ms. Flowerday really ought to just 7 resign because she should have never had her opinions voiced 8 to the media. They wouldn't let me talk. They wouldn't let 9 me talk to them because they said they couldn't because you 10 all may have to hear it. But then they can put it on the 11 media for everybody to hear? That's not the way it should 12 be done. The people should have their right in court. 13 If a trainer last year -- I had two trainers 14 last year. Both of them, two different trainers, one of 15 them suspended, the other one takes over and runs just like 16 he was doing -- or she was doing all year long. She's been 17 my trainer and done an excellent job of training my horses. 18 And like I told Mr. Burleson, if they can't -- 19 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Mr. Smith, I'm going to ask 20 you not to get into the substance of the matter. 21 MR. SMITH: Well, like I told Mr. Burleson, if 22 they can't train the horse -- if my trainer can't train a 23 horse in this state, send me a letter and I'll remove my 24 horse. If not, then let you all, the board, or let this 25 Commission decide that before you try to convict them in the FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 102 1 media. That's all I'm asking. That's a good trainer, a 2 heck of a good trainer. 3 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Mr. Smith, I'm going to ask 4 you not to -- 5 MR. SMITH: I understand that, ma'am. 6 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Thank you. Sorry that you 7 had to come in. 8 MR. SMITH: I'm sure. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. Any other new 10 business? 11 We'll move now to trying to set our next 12 meeting. I think staff has recommended those first three 13 weeks in February of 2002. Anybody have any conflicts that 14 they know of? 15 MR. ARCHER: The week of the 4th isn't good 16 for me. 17 CHAIRPERSON LACY: I beg your pardon? 18 MR. ARCHER: The week of the 4th is not good. 19 CHAIRPERSON LACY: The week of the 4th is not 20 good? Okay. Then let's go to the weeks of the 11th and 21 18th. 22 You cannot do it on the 11th? 23 VICE-CHAIRMAN GARZA: That week. 24 CHAIRPERSON LACY: That week. Okay. We're 25 now to the week of the 18th. Is there anyone who can't do FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 103 1 it the week of the 18th? Is the day February 18th -- 2 COMMISSIONER SCHULZE: What day of the week is 3 that? 4 CHAIRPERSON LACY: It's a Monday. And that's 5 not a three-day weekend, is it? It would have been the 6 weekend before. Well, that could be. 7 COMMISSIONER BOYD: Madam Chair, if we could 8 move it away from a Monday. 9 CHAIRPERSON LACY: Okay. Does February 20th 10 work for everyone? Is that okay with everybody? 11 Okay. We'll meet again on February 20th. 12 If there's no other business, the meeting is 13 adjourned. 14 (Proceedings concluded at 12:26 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373 104 1 STATE OF TEXAS ) 2 COUNTY OF TRAVIS ) 3 I, SHERRI SANTMAN FISHER, a Certified 4 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do hereby 5 certify that the above-captioned matter came on for hearing 6 before the TEXAS RACING COMMISSION as hereinbefore set out. 7 I FURTHER CERTIFY that the proceedings of said 8 hearing were reported by me, accurately reduced to 9 typewriting under my supervision and control and, after 10 being so reduced, were filed with the TEXAS RACING 11 COMMISSION. 12 GIVEN UNDER MY OFFICIAL HAND OF OFFICE at 13 Austin, Texas, this 7th day of December, 2001. 14 15 16 17 ____________________________ 18 SHERRI SANTMAN FISHER Certification No. 2336 19 Expiration Date: 12/31/01 20 #01-2345 21 22 23 24 25 FISHER REPORTING P. O. BOX 142485 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78714-2485 (512) 477-1373